MONITOR FEEDING QUESTION

[TegusRawsome80]

Just remember that no matter how much of a jerk Frank may be, he has had a tremendous amount of success breeding monitors. He successfully bred and kept the species that you are currently trying to succeed with. Also, they're right in that monitors are harder to take care of than tegus. Even if you don't like how the advice was delivered, imo it was good advice. Oh, and I feed my tegu that I have now and those in the past mostly whole prey items.

 

[Bntegus]

i look up to frank never said he was a bad guy i have learned a lot from him bye reading not asking and i have breed monitors that i thought i never would tell i started listening and reading what people like frank have to say.

 

[frost]

well one reason people want to feed the turkey and other ground meats is cost i think. the amount of rats and mice it takes to feed a growing monitor or tegu would cost more than a lot of people can gain through their jobs. if i were to switch my tegus to an all whole prey diet i would be living under a bridge. im breeding around 20 rats right now and i still have to go out and buy rats and mice sometimes.where on the other hand i can go out and get the ground meats from super markets/farmer friends and afford to eat something besides romen and hotdogs still.

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it seems like you guys know alot of resources of information, i found a handful of them but am always looking for more. can anyone give me some news sites/books i can checkout to get more info from? i like to get perspectives from all sides.

 

[Dana C]

The heart of the matter is that a whole rodent, bones organs etc contains more nutrients than a prepared meal. The SD diet worked an I will post references, authors and other sources that will at least demonstrate that there are other ways to go other than whole prey.
Also my version of the Turkey diet contains, ground chicken, chicken and beef organs, beef heart which is very lean muscle meat, whole fish calcium from either Flukers or powdered egg shell, reptile specific vitamins and a couple of large mice weekly. With the exception of hair, my mixture conatins 100% of the nutrition that a whole mouse or rat would. It is also has the same or lower fat content by percentage as rodents.
I don't just try and cheap out with my mix and infact the cost is about $2.50-$2.75 per pound which is less expensive than whole prey. I buy fresh or frozen meats, liver, gizzards, stomach, (tripe), and pancreas when I can find it. I also stir in scrambled egg or raw egg a couple of times per week.
That is the monitor diet. My Tegu mix includes veggies and fruit, (when I can trick them into eating them).

Here are a couple of sites that detail the SD diet research and simular diets. Most of the work was done Komodos but V. albigularis and V. ionidesi are a couple of the closest species to them.
http://lllreptile.com/info/library/care-and-husbandry-articles/-/notes-on-the-feeding-of-monitor-lizards/
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/zoo.20000/abstract
http://www.anapsid.org/balsai.html
http://www.reptilepets.co.za/rp301212.htm * South African reptile supplier and very knowledgeable.
http://starbacks.ca/Athens/7281/feedings.htm

The following is a discussion with Jeffrey Lemm, the developer of the SDZ diet. I found this on another forum.
"Folks, I wanted to put this to bed in my mind, as well as for this discussion. While many (including myself) may still feel variety is the best long-term practice, I did manage to track down Jeff online, and he was kind enough to respond to the discussion. Here's his response in its entirety:
_____________________________________________
Hi Rick,

You have found me, lol. Yes, I did the research on the ground turkey-based diet and the peer-reviewed journal article did come out in Zoo Biology. I believe the pdf is online and there was a link in the discussion. Anyways, the diet was simply to find another staple in the diet of monitor lizards. The study compared rodents to a ground turkey-based diet in juvenile Komodo monitors and basically found little difference between the two diets. The “SDZ diet” name was something the private sector came up with after I wrote a couple of articles on monitors in Reptiles mag. That is probably why our PR dept. knew nothing about it. There has been a lot of debate about it simply because people heard about it through the grapevine and did not make it properly or use the proper ingredients. Plus, monitor forums are not the nicest places and I pretty much gave up on them; plus I’m very busy with research. Lean ground turkey is a must to keep it from coming out soft on the other end. We used:
10 lbs. ground turkey
90 grams steamed bonemeal
2 crushed Centrum tablets

I also used the diet extensively at home and when I worked at zoos in Australia – it worked great. In fact I raised, kept, and bred ackies on nothing but turkey just to prove it. I had glauerti breed on it with no problems either. It has also been used on many different skinks and Tegus, as well as Dracaena. My prasinus like it better than anything and just produced eggs (which the male promptly ate!). Anyways, I hope this helps you out. Don’t worry too much about forums. People believe what they want and that’s why I rarely respond to posts about it. Good luck,

Jeff
________________________________________________

As the kind Mr. (Dr?) Lemm may be suggesting, among hobbyists and professionals alike, there are a lot of strong opinions regarding all aspects of husbandry. Some here may take this as proof that this turkey-based diet is a great monodiet, others may rail against the idea. Are questions answered with finality now? Of course not, but at least now there is proof that yes, the diet did exist as fabled, and the man who did the published research suggests that he's found it suitable for tegus as well as monitors. I hope this helps."

There are more sources, some of which are breeders and encyclopedic entries.

One more note. V. ionidesi eat very few rodents in the wild as rodents in Tanzania are day light feeders and Black Throats are nocturnal or dinural feeders. Speed enough to catch fast prey is another issue. Carrion, insects, worms, birds, bird eggs, snakes, lizards and just about anything they can catch or find living or dead provides a meal.

I hope this helps.

 

[TegusRawsome80]

Yes Black throats eat anything they can find, but they dont find ground turkey in the wild. I do feed a variety of foods to my tegu, but I feed him a LOT of whole prey items. You can't say that just because black throats eat a variety of foods then ground turkey is the best they can get. If you were feeding him carrion, insects, worms, birds, bird eggs, snakes, lizards, and everything else they can eat or find IN THE WILD then no one would say anything...

 

[Dana C]

I didn't say I fed the diet. I feed a modified diet which consists of turkey, chicken, chicken and beef organs, whole fish, eggs and worms occasionally.
I supplement with calcium and reptile formulated vitamins. I posted links to papers, studies and herpitologists which demonstrate the effectivness of my diet and the SDZ diet.
Proteins that come from prey items are no different chemically than proteins that come from turkey, chicken, beef, fish or other reptiles. Bones are calcium carbonate weather it comes from prey bones, cow bones, chicken necks, or any other species bones. Every protein source source I feed is carrion. All dead animals are carrion...mine are fresher.

What I have done, is research the science of V. albigulara albigulara and V. albigulara ionedisl. Trust me, there is no magic ingredient in mice or rats, chicks, lizards etc. that can't be duplicated in a proper diet formulation.

I should say that there is evidence that pure rodent diets have been the cause of obesity and fatty liver conditions in some monitors. Also worms are very fattening and should be fed sparingly. Insects don't contain any calcium and must be dusted and are lean in other nutrients.

I have considered the opinions of more experienced V. ionedsi keepers and have used their suggestions. To ignore herpetologists with graduate degrees in the science, other biologists and researchers which have completed blood chemistry analysis of monitors on both diets would be foolish.

Like I have said now MANY times, I don't just feed ground turkey. My mixture is complete, and well balanced. I do feed a couple of mice or rats weekly to provide variety. My Ionidesi looks great. His skin is shiny, very colorful and his growing at an outstanding rate. What I don't understand is why people keep repeating only what they have heard and not having the curiosity to research the science of nutruition. It takes a few hours in front of a computer I will say. However it is rewarding and very enlightening.

 

[james.w]

I'm just very curious as to why almost every person on this forum wants to feed their tegus a ground turkey base diet it seems. I have a yearling savannah monitor and red tegu and also a baby blue tegu. Ive only feed these lizards crickets frozen thawed mice or rats unless they were pinkies and very recently dubia roaches. As you can tell by the age of my lizards Ive only been keeping carnivorous lizards for a year. But why do people keep feeding their lizards ground turkey and not whole prey. I don't understand the idea behind the ground turkey. I'm not trying to insult or argue I just dont fully understand the reason behind it Also what are these monitor specific forums. I would like to read what these people say about their monitor care.

Varanus.nl
Varanus.net
Kingsnake.com has a monitor forum as well.

 

[Dana C]

In a post yesterday on this thread, I listed some source material that provides blood chemistry and other comparisons of the diet with whole prey.
While I do feed whole prey, I do it sparingly. My diet as I said above contains ground poultry meats, not just turkey, beef heart, beef or chicken liver, whole baby trout or tilapia, chicken gizzards, calf pancreas when I can get it, calcium and vitamin supplements. I also feed chopped wings once a week. I also add fruit and veggies to the Tegu portions but don't have much success with them eating it.

As I also said, monitor forums are full of "my way or the highway" opinions. My suggestion is do the research, read the science listen to others but first and foremost, read the studies and papers done on nutrient contents of both diets. It is not just a ground turkey diet and domestically raised mice and rats are not the perfect food. Variety is key here. It is my opinion that both diets will work but a combination is best. What I feed has every component that prey items have except feathers and fur. I feed the mice or rats a couple of times a week as a break from the other diet.

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Have you looked into using dirt for substrate? It will help immensely with the humidity and will hold a burrow. If you feel you are getting the proper nutrients in the diet you are feeding, that is all that matters.

Actually James I am beginning to build a 10 x 5 enclosure and plan to use a play sand, soil and eco-earth mix. Sadly I may not get past 2' in depth because of the weight on these old floors.
What do you think about having a deep section holding 3' and half of the enclosure holding only 12' of cypress? In other words, create a burrowing section and a basking, feeding, water source section

 

[Bntegus]

one foot is more then enough two is great but that is more for breeding black throats like to borrow but i have not seen mine go deeper then 6inch or so. they like to hide in cracks and holes more i think and they also like to climb they do not just live on and under. i tried a little bit of your mixed up food today but i modified it with chopped pinkies lol all my monitors and tegus eat it. oh and i made 35lb that was with 75 pinkies and it is all gone lol

 

[dragonmetalhead]

I'm pretty sure tegus don't find ground turkey out in the wilds of Amazonia, either, but you don't see hardcore tegu owners flipping out over it. From the sound of it, Dana, you are a very concerned, doting reptile-parent who is willing to do the necessary research to ensure the health of your pet and I have no doubt your monitor will be fine. I am sorry they tore you a new one, you don't deserve it. Ask your vet what he/she thinks if you are really worried about it. I don't like talking to monitor people either; many I have met are not very friendly or outgoing, are unwilling to answer questions asked by non-monitor people or otherwise talk down to them, and sit far too comfortably up on their high horses. I have also found a lot of them don't have the best of people skills, either. There are two types of reptile people in the world: those who keep reptiles because they love them and want to interact with them as pets, and those who just want to keep/collect exotic display animals for novelty-type reasons. Almost every single monitor person I have met falls into the latter category. Neither one is better or worse than the other. It's all a matter of personal preference and I'm not passing judgement.

 

[james.w]

Actually James I am beginning to build a 10 x 5 enclosure and plan to use a play sand, soil and eco-earth mix. Sadly I may not get past 2' in depth because of the weight on these old floors.
What do you think about having a deep section holding 3' and half of the enclosure holding only 12' of cypress? In other words, create a burrowing section and a basking, feeding, water source section

I would put 18" of dirt, and if you can get a hold of some leaf litter, use that on the top. This will do wonders for your humidity.

The way you suggested will work, but he will move everything around anyway, so it may not work exactly as you have planned.

On your enclosure, I would not put any vents at all. That size enclosure will contain enough air that daily opening and closing of the doors will provide an adequate air exchange. Without any vents, your temps and humidity will be MUCH easier to maintain.

 

[TegusRawsome80]

I'm pretty sure tegus don't find ground turkey out in the wilds of Amazonia, either, but you don't see hardcore tegu owners flipping out over it. From the sound of it, Dana, you are a very concerned, doting reptile-parent who is willing to do the necessary research to ensure the health of your pet and I have no doubt your monitor will be fine. I am sorry they tore you a new one, you don't deserve it. Ask your vet what he/she thinks if you are really worried about it. I don't like talking to monitor people either; many I have met are not very friendly or outgoing, are unwilling to answer questions asked by non-monitor people or otherwise talk down to them, and sit far too comfortably up on their high horses. I have also found a lot of them don't have the best of people skills, either. There are two types of reptile people in the world: those who keep reptiles because they love them and want to interact with them as pets, and those who just want to keep/collect exotic display animals for novelty-type reasons. Almost every single monitor person I have met falls into the latter category. Neither one is better or worse than the other. It's all a matter of personal preference and I'm not passing judgement.

I'm sorry but monitor owners don't keep their animals as "novelty items". The "hardcore" monitor keepers such as FR and other members on his forum and kingsnake monitors forums take much better care of their animals than almost all other reptile keepers. It's hard to beat room sized enclosures and whole trees inside of them. They don't keep them as pets, but that's not because they're novelty items but more because they respect the intense, active and sometimes fearful personality many monitors have. Monitors are not really meant to be "pets" that you cuddle with and play with and just because they don't keep them as "pets" doesn't mean they don't care about their animals or that they don't love them. The passion most of those monitor people show far surpasses that of "normal" reptile people. And some monitor keepers do come off as rude but a lot of them have an incredible amount of knowledge and experience backing them up. And would you not get tired of answering the same question of "How do I take care of the lizard I just got without looking up a care sheet first?" I don't keep monitors and I do agree that the "hardcore" monitor people are a bit high strung, like some monitors, but there are not only two types of reptile keepers. There are scientific researchers, breeders, the people who only keep their animals as pets, and then those who collect them as novelty items along with many other types. If there weren't breeders who didn't keep each animal as a pet where would you get your reptiles from? Each "type" of reptile person fills a part of the reptile industry, and just because you don't like them doesn't mean they don't care about and love their animals just as much as you do.

 

[frost]

that is bs...monitors can be pets just like any other reptile kept in captivity.i hate to be a jerk but im sick and tired of people saying that this animal or that animal cant be a loved pet just like a cat or a dog. and should be kept like it is some expensive weapon or statue.

 

[TegusRawsome80]

Yes, they CAN be, but many species, not all, don't enjoy human interaction. And by pet I mean domesticated animal, not that you can't pick them up or hold them for short periods of time. I will rephrase to most monitors shouldn't be treated like domesticated animals. Black throats and savannahs by far seem to get the closest though.

 

[frost]

well dogs dont like being picked up either. lol the few times i had to pick my dog up she squirmed just like a monitor does. and if anyone ever gets into sugar gliders dont talk on any of the forums. they will rip you apart even if you have the bet care for them.my fiance got a lot of rude remarks because she had one sugar glider for a month or so while she was trying to find another one.

 

[Dana C]

I started with Tegus about 9 years ago but moved to Idaho from California about 6 years ago and had to give my Tegu up when I moved.
I now keep my Tegus and Monitor because of my interest in the species and thirst for knowledge on their intelligence and ability to adapt. Having a proper diet, lighting, heating enclosure etc. is part of it. What interests me most is growing a trust level with my lizard charges and observing how they bond to me and tolerate others. I make casual notes of the process and am constantly amazed at the progress and the trust / bonding behaviors displayed.
Sure my lizards are pets but they are also projects. I want to know all I can about the taming process and the different behaviors both
Tegus and Black Throats display. I want to be able to pass along what I know to anyone that needs it. The Dana Diet is the same. I didn't just modify the Bobby Hill / SDZ diet randomly. I found the nuitrient content of mice and rats raised commercially and researched the nutrient / protein, fat etc. content various ground meats and organs and fish. I use supplemental calcium and vitamins to insure that my lizards get every vitamin and mineral found in FT rodents and chicks of any species.
I guess what I am trying to say is, I really spent hours and hours on this and will continue to research and tweek the diet and my social bonding with my lizards. I have read every care sheet, every published study and every thread I can find on the various forums about my lizard species Every thing I do or experiment with has a purpose behind it. Yes, sometimes I have fun with it but mostly it is a process of expanding what I know about them and their kind and how they are in captivity.
I understand FR, Mike and the others wanting to keep their monitors in what they consider a semi wild state. I believe that no matter what size box you put them in, it is still a box. I would rather continue what I am doing and be constantly amazed at their behavior as pets and their vastly underestimated intelligence outside of Herpers like those that are reading this thread.

As a side note, has anyone noticed that the people that really read threads like this on this forum and The Tegu Community Forums are much like me and are keepers that thrive on the quest to know more. Very seldom does any of the "my Tegu is so cute" folks respond to any of these threads. We hear from those folks when they need or want help, which is fine. Sometimes I wonder why most people don't want to dig out the information they need themselves and actually learn more.

 

[frost]

this is the kinda thing i like to hear from reptile keepers. those who take the time to research and care for their animals as well as have a real love for tthem.=]

 

[Dana C]

Another $.02 on the wild vs. tame thing on varanus.net, get ready for the sarcasm.....
Yesterday Kinabo decided to crawl onto my lap while sitting with him in the bathroom. After a bit he decided that the view from my head would be much more thrilling and made the attempt to climb onto my balding pate.
Oh I am sorry that can't possibly have happened because he is not tame. Today when I entered the reptile room and was talking talking to a dog that was with me, Kinabo heard my voice and was right at the door to his enclosure wait for his morning head scratch. Oh I'm sorry that shouldn't have happened because I am not supposed to have a Monitor that is somewhat bonded to me. I am also ashamed that he fell asleep in my arms. Bad Dana, Bad Dana!

Ok, I am through with the sarcasm. Oh by the way, I was told by a few people that if I raise the temperature he would not be tame. His basking area is 135-140 and the cool end is around 80f. I was told if he wasn't fed well, he would be lethargic and if fed well he would not be tame. Well he has grown almost 6" in six weeks and is still, "my boy".

Ok I won't rant anymore.

 

[m3s4]

Quote: as a side note, has anyone noticed that the people that really read threads like this on this forum and The Tegu Community Forums are much like me and are keepers that thrive on the quest to know more. Very seldom does any of the "my Tegu is so cute" folks respond to any of these threads. We hear from those folks when they need or want help, which is fine. Sometimes I wonder why most people don't want to dig out the information they need themselves and actually learn more.


Honestly, I think it's because a lot of people are lazy and need to be spoon-fed tons of info. So, they are more often then not, willing to take any advice they can get - even if it's misleading and/or just wrong.

I feel like you do when it comes to my animals and pets. I enjoy keeping them, but I also want to give them the best life I can - as well as learn from them and about them.

The bonding that takes place with undomesticated, wild reptiles is amazing to me and very alien to many people who just don't seem to get the dynamics involved let alone care about them. I'm one of those that do.

As far as taming wild animals, including monitors, I believe almost anything can be tamed - and by that I don't me tolerated. I mean tamed as in the animal in question trusts you and also likes you and your presence.

If a crocodile can be tamed, lions and tigers have been tamed and Bart the bear was a most incredible specimen, then most likely there's plenty out there that can be tamed.

Poncho the tame crocodile

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Just skimming through youtube and came across this:

More animals that you wouldn't expect to be tamed, obviously are.

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3h2CA001rM&feature=related[/video]

 

[dragonmetalhead]

If a crocodile can be tamed, lions and tigers have been tamed and Bart the bear was a most incredible specimen, then most likely there's plenty out there that can be tamed.

Bart the bear is one of the greatest animal actors of all time, along with Bongo the lion. The Edge is a fantastic movie.

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Another $.02 on the wild vs. tame thing on varanus.net, get ready for the sarcasm.....
Yesterday Kinabo decided to crawl onto my lap while sitting with him in the bathroom. After a bit he decided that the view from my head would be much more thrilling and made the attempt to climb onto my balding pate.
Oh I am sorry that can't possibly have happened because he is not tame. Today when I entered the reptile room and was talking talking to a dog that was with me, Kinabo heard my voice and was right at the door to his enclosure wait for his morning head scratch. Oh I'm sorry that shouldn't have happened because I am not supposed to have a Monitor that is somewhat bonded to me. I am also ashamed that he fell asleep in my arms. Bad Dana, Bad Dana!

Ok, I am through with the sarcasm. Oh by the way, I was told by a few people that if I raise the temperature he would not be tame. His basking area is 135-140 and the cool end is around 80f. I was told if he wasn't fed well, he would be lethargic and if fed well he would not be tame. Well he has grown almost 6" in six weeks and is still, "my boy".

Ok I won't rant anymore.

That's it, I'm officially referring to you as the "Black Throat Whisperer." Somebody call Animal Planet or Nat Geo Wild and give this guy a show!