MONITOR FEEDING QUESTION

[Dana C]

I joined a Monitor forum and layed out my housing, temps, lighting etc and what I fed. I feed, as I have related on this forum, a mixture of ground turkey, ground chicken w/ bones, beef heart, cartilage, beef liver, chicken gizzards, vitamins & calcium. I also feed whole small fish and a couple of FT rodents a week.
The responses I got were, "Welcome to the forum. Stop feed that junk and feed only whole prey or you will have a dead monitor on your hands". "We can chat about taming, petting and that crap later." You would have thought I was trying to stuff my black throat with Twinkies from the tone of the feedback.

The meat diet I feed is well balanced and contains everything a FT mouse or rat does in terms of nutrition. I think that anyone would be hard put to disprove my contention and actually describe missing proteins, minerals, calcium, amino acids etc.

 

[Dereks-Dragons]

as ive learned as well is most people on all monitor forums think they are jesus christ or something nad are extremely stuck up lol. i almost got kicked off of repticzone i got so fed up i sorta went off on them over there... while yes you really do need to be feeding mostly whole pray, but if the monitor is getting the same nutrition and everything i dont see a problem with what your feeding as long as yu do still feed rodents a few times a week. i believe i saw you have a blackthroat? i had a 5 foot male blackthroat TERROR but i fed him only jumbo XXL rats.. once they start getting that big its hard to feed anything but large rodents because they are even more of bottomless pits then tegus lol and the fact that he will most likely exeed 6 feet.. thats ALOT of ground turkey and the such..

 

[james.w]

Monitors thrive on whole prey. They can survive on what you are feeding, but will do much better on whole prey. I understand you ADD calcium to the diet, but are you sure you are adding the required amounts? Whole prey is just that, whole and complete.

Do you provide UVB?

 

[Dereks-Dragons]

if your not feeeding solely whole pray i suggest you use UVB.

 

[Bntegus]

i tried to tell you to stay away from there they are not pet people they are breeders and researchers and they will not tell you it is alright there only going to tell you the truth you are doing just fine dana keep it up

 

[Dana C]

The truth as they see it at any rate. I use a UVB light source and keep the basking area around 135f and the cool end around 80f. I mist a couple of times daily and actually pour a little water into the substrate so his burrow has the proper humidity. James was right, keeping humidity up is really tough in Idaho especially in a 135 degree enclosure.

 

[Dereks-Dragons]

even up here in NY i have some problem with humidity so i have misting systems that digitally turn n and mist my cages a few times a day. uploading a video right now of you old AAs new cage dana as well as one of my monitors cage that are both run on the same mister. also idk if u have a mesh top or what not but plastic wrap helps to keep the humidity in also wetness isnt ALWAYS humidity. it can be somewhat dry and still humid in there

 

[Dana C]

Here is a bit of correspondence with Jeffrey Lemm who developed the SDZ diet, which by the way was never used at the Zoo.
"You have found me, lol. Yes, I did the research on the ground turkey-based diet and the peer-reviewed journal article did come out in Zoo Biology. I believe the pdf is online and there was a link in the discussion. Anyways, the diet was simply to find another staple in the diet of monitor lizards. The study compared rodents to a ground turkey-based diet in juvenile Komodo monitors and basically found little difference between the two diets. The “SDZ diet” name was something the private sector came up with after I wrote a couple of articles on monitors in Reptiles mag. That is probably why our PR dept. knew nothing about it. There has been a lot of debate about it simply because people heard about it through the grapevine and did not make it properly or use the proper ingredients. Plus, monitor forums are not the nicest places and I pretty much gave up on them; plus I’m very busy with research. Lean ground turkey is a must to keep it from coming out soft on the other end. We used:



10 lbs. ground turkey

90 grams steamed bonemeal

2 crushed Centrum tablets



I also used the diet extensively at home and when I worked at zoos in Australia – it worked great. In fact I raised, kept, and bred ackies on nothing but turkey just to prove it. I had glauerti breed on it with no problems either. It has also been used on many different skinks and Tegus, as well as Dracaena. My prasinus like it better than anything and just produced eggs (which the male promptly ate!). Anyways, I hope this helps you out. Don’t worry too much about forums. People believe what they want and that’s why I rarely respond to posts about it. Good luck,
Jeff
________________________________________________

As the kind Mr. (Dr?) Lemm may be suggesting, among hobbyists and professionals alike, there are a lot of strong opinions regarding all aspects of husbandry. Some here may take this as proof that this turkey-based diet is a great monodiet, others may rail against the idea. Are questions answered with finality now? Of course not, but at least now there is proof that yes, the diet did exist as fabled, and the man who did the published research suggests that he's found it suitable for tegus as well as monitors. I hope this helps.

Quoted from a thread on the Tegu Community Forum, 02/2007 between Rick and Mr. Lemm.

 

[james.w]

The problem with the SDZ diet is very few people prepare it properly.

 

[chelvis]

The problem with SDZ diet is SDZ won't use it anymore, lol.

Whole prey for monitors in a captive diet, you watch what they eat in the wild and its much different. Eggs, inscets, carcasses, mice. Monitors will eat anything that moves in the wild. I see nothing wrong with the diet, he said the ground chicken had bone in it and organ so that's basically a whole chicken.

 

[Bntegus]

people have had healthy tegus and moniotors on these diets for years so i see nothing wrong with it. now if you are breeding most people feed whole prey ft pk live to keep them on the move it keeps them more active and not sit there and just get fat and lazy but we are not talking about breeding so dana get the substrate as deep as you can and that is the best thing dont worry about spraying the substrate will take care of that.

 

[Dana C]

Here is a short but concise article on diets. This study was done on yougn Komodos.
"Abstract
Nutrition and growth data were collected on six juvenile Komodo monitors (Varanus komodoensis) over 20 months. The animals were captive-bred from two separate clutches, laid 6 months apart. Three animals were fed a rodent diet, and the other three were fed a poultry-based diet. The animals were all weighed and measured weekly. Blood samples were collected monthly. Blood samples were analyzed for sodium (Na), potassium (K), calcium (Ca), phosphorus (P), magnesium (Mg), 25-OH-D, and cholesterol. Significant differences (P<0.05) were observed in dry matter intake (DMI) (1.12 vs. 0.90 %BW) and gross energy intake (GEI) (182.3 vs. 143.0 kcal GE/d), between rodent and poultry-based diets, respectively. However, there were no differences in growth (average daily gain=6.13 vs. 6.33 g BW/d) between the two dietary treatments. Blood Na, K, Ca, P, Mg, and 25-OH-D concentrations were similar across treatments, while cholesterol levels were higher in the animals maintained on the rodent-based diet. Zoo Biol 23:239–252, 2004. © 2004 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
References:
Jeffrey M. Lemm,*, Mark S. Edwards2, Tandora D. Grant1, Allison C. Alberts

 

[james.w]

The diets sound like whole prey though.

 

[Dana C]

If you are saying that the non whole prey diet is like a prey diet in terms of nutrients I would agree. The diet that I feed includes ground poultry, ground beef heart, (more lean than turkey I might add), organ meats and vitamins and calcium in measured proportions according to diets being fed to varanides in captivity. Mine do get mice at least a couple of times per week. I would like any one to prove to me and the scientific community that what I feed is any less nutritious than whole prey. If you would like, I can site more reference material.
The basic diet was formulated and tested initially by Jeffery Lemm, a PHD in biology. The others contributed to the validation.
A lot of people tend to pontificate about things yet never post the sources of reference material, authors or publications. I will do that always if possible unless I make statements based upon personal observations which I have always done.
By the way, James, I am not attacking you in any way. I just lose patience with others passing along hearsay assuming to be 100% accurate. Billy was right, the Monitor specialty forums are filled with "my way or the highway" statements and attitudes.
By way of accuracy, both V. abigularus and V. ionidesi feed on what ever they can get a hold of including more often than not, carrion in the wild.

 

[Dana C]

I am going to share this because of the hostility that I got on another forum. I was told that the Monitor forums were that way but I hoped to glean information anyway and got nothing but derision and criticism. I don't claim to know it all but if you read my posts, you have to know I read the science, like James and others.

"Sure,I will do it tomorrow. As far as enclosure, an 8x3 wood with glass doors. Substrate for now is shredded aspen as Cypress is like hens teeth here in Idaho. Substrate is almost 12" and is misted twice or three times daily as are the walls, (plexiglas covering over wood. I will be ordering Cypress on line to replace the aspen. I also pour small quantities of water directly into the bedding to assure a more humid burrow.
Kinabo's basking rock is kept at 135-140 surface,during the day and the cool end is 80f. Lighting includes a UVB florescent and a halogen heat lamp. Cool end heating is a ceramic heat emitter. He has a rock that holds heat well and I raise or lower it to achieve the temps that I need. I usually feed him in his enclosure surpervised so no substrate is ingested. He is fairly tolerant of my wiping his mouth for him. The reason I do this is, is that substrate sticks to his mouth and is deposited in his food and is ingested. He will eat his meals partially outside, ie the bathroom after a hot bath.

I had him out for an hour or more in his reptile room today. He explores and climbs on anything and everything. He comes back to me and "checks in" every so often. He brushes his cheek against my hand an climbs over my legs. When he is out like this he is much more "whippy". I usually touch his tail first and talk to him and he chills but he is more feisty when he is free roaming.

As far as feeding, Kinabo gets a couple of mice a week or more and a daily mixture of ground turkey, ground chicken breast, beef heart, chicken gizzards, beef liver, cod liver oil, vitamin powder and calcium. I use ground egg shells as they are 100% calcium carbonate, the same as bones. He also gets scrambled eggs 2-3 time a week mixed into his food. I live close to several trout hatcheries which donate 2" trout fry which I feed whole. He REALLY loves those.

As far as the "my way or the highway" comments I have received on this and other forums calling this feeding regimen "junk", I would love to see some one post sources, references, studies etc. to support their statements. I can post all of those if required. I don't rely upon hearsay or the "some guy told me" mentality. I understand that keepers much more experience than I have great results with feeding prey items exclusively. I would defy anyone to show me any research that can demonstrate that what I feed is any less nutritional than whole prey. Black throats feed on anything they can subdue or find. In the wild, V. ionidesi that means carrion is the menu for a lot of days.

I am sorry if I sound defensive but most Monitor forums are full of not very friendly, pontificating so called experts. People that ask questions, need answers, options and an invitation to ask more.
Feel free to share this and copy it. I may get banned from the forum, but that is the way I have felt for the few hours I have been a member.
Dana

 

[Bntegus]

stop beating your self up you have done nothing wrong. im just as much a monitor guy as a tegu lover i dont talk much on the monitor forms because i have a bad mouth and they can sometimes really get you going so i just read and learn im not a big fan of frank retes and his little gang but you can learn a lot form them if you just read and dont talk dont no if this will help but quit beating you self up.

 

[Dana C]

Thanks Billy. I really do the science. I try to find every paper written and do so almost obsessively. I try to quote sources, studies, papers, authors publications and references. I seems that the self appointed experts can't do the same. I am done ranting.

 

[james.w]

Have you looked into using dirt for substrate? It will help immensely with the humidity and will hold a burrow. If you feel you are getting the proper nutrients in the diet you are feeding, that is all that matters.

 

[m3s4]

I don't know if, in your research and investigation, you've found this information or not.

I found it on LLLReptiles.com while browsing around and when I came across the info, just wanted to share it in the event it might help. Perhaps this is common knowledge among many of you - perhaps it isn't. I don't know much about monitors but did find it interesting that LLLReptiles feed their monitors AND tegus this recipe.

I hope it helps whoever finds this information useful - I know I'll be trying this recipe with my 3 tegus.

Note: this is not the entire article which can be found here:

http://lllreptile.com/info/library/...es/-/notes-on-the-feeding-of-monitor-lizards/

This is simply a snippet I found most interesting in regards to your original post and also for the fact that it can apparently, be useful for feeding tegus.

Notes on the Feeding of Monitor Lizards - By Jonathan Rheins

A New Alternative

Keepers who have been working with monitors for any length of time may be aware of this dietary option, while it’s existence may come as news to less experienced hobbyists. Quite a few years ago, keepers and animal nutritionists at the San Diego Zoo were experimenting with non-rodent diets for their larger monitor species. At the time, they were working intensively with Komodo Dragons, but the diet that they derived is acceptable for all monitor species.

The exact, original recipe is not really known, but it is widely accepted that it contained nothing more than raw, ground turkey, eggs, steamed bone meal (as a source of calcium), and multivitamins. This original formula has been passed around for years, with subtle changes being made along the way.

I recommend mixing one pound of raw, ground turkey with two raw eggs including the shells. The steamed bone meal is easily replaced by one heaping tablespoon of a high quality calcium/vitamin supplement designed specifically for reptile use. Mix this well, and feed your lizard whatever it will consume in a few moments. The remaining mixture can be frozen in ice cube trays or larger containers for future feedings.

We have had tremendous success (as did the San Diego Zoo) with this diet, and provide it to all of our monitor and tegu species regularly. Up to 70% of your lizards diet can consist of this mixture as long as it prepared as indicated, and as long as the remainder of the diet is as varied and as nutritious as possible.

 

[philzoso513]

I'm just very curious as to why almost every person on this forum wants to feed their tegus a ground turkey base diet it seems. I have a yearling savannah monitor and red tegu and also a baby blue tegu. Ive only feed these lizards crickets frozen thawed mice or rats unless they were pinkies and very recently dubia roaches. As you can tell by the age of my lizards Ive only been keeping carnivorous lizards for a year. But why do people keep feeding their lizards ground turkey and not whole prey. I don't understand the idea behind the ground turkey. I'm not trying to insult or argue I just dont fully understand the reason behind it Also what are these monitor specific forums. I would like to read what these people say about their monitor care.