Albino/ Snow Tegu

[eddyjack]

Yep! It's snowin to beat the band here tonight.

 

[chris allen]

Somebody sent me a link that I thought I would share. I found it just a tad hypocritical.
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That post is over 4 years old. I don't see it as hypocritical as we all have the right to change our minds and views as time passes and new information becomes available. Do you still feel the same way about everything now as you did 4 years ago?

An interesting topic and one people are very passionate about so let's try to keep it clean, arguing your point not your person. Does anybody disagree that albino tegus hatch out with obvious handicaps be they eye or skin problems? I'd also like to see further tests done on these animals. It seems the majority of them do poorly compared to normal tegus so I don't really see the point in continued breeding but that's just my opinion.

The majority do poorly? Id love to know where some of these "opinions" come from. I'm not at home right now, but i would love to get into this a bit further once i am.

 

[JohnMatthew]

You took it out of context.. compared to normal tegus who typically hatch with no sight or light sensitivity issues is this statement wrong?

 

[JohnMatthew]

My opinion is that I would not breed them myself if I were even capable and like you I reserve the right to keep that opinion if I so choose. I also welcome you to try and change it as I will keep an open mind to any and all evidence presented.

 

[Wil]

I'm personally very fond of the appearance of a white Tegu... but there are 'cons' to that 'pro' which I have to consider...


Wil, although I see your point that 'the glass test' will not be 'all inclusive', I would be interested to see/hear/read the results of this test with your Albino. I hope you try it out and share the results.

Another 'test' you could try is to tie a string to a ball (or other object) and throw the ball at the Tegu, ensuring the string will stop the ball from actually hitting the Tegu. While 'the glass test' would require the albino to see well enough to identify the rat as food, this 'ball' test would only require the albino to tell there is something flying at his head. You will likely want to perform this test on a normal Tegu as well as I've never thrown anything at my Tegu so I'm not sure what the 'normal' response whould be...


I understand that a lack of melanin makes Tegus (or any albino) vulnerable to sunburn, skin cancer and other issues related to sunlight (or artificial supplements).

But I wonder if... due to the vulnerability to UVB, do they get the full volume of what they need from the sun (or artificial supplement) through far shorter exposure to the sun (or artificial supplements)?

So could a weaker UVB kept farther from the albino animal give them what they need, while not being great enough to harm them?


I give great value to the facts Bobby (and others) have shared, but I do not believe that a single all enclusive conclusion is the only responsible conclusion that can be drawn. I look forward to further discussion on this topic and hope that both 'sides' remain respectful enough for it to continue.

Hey Toby,
I can pretty much tell you if the "glass" method would work or not. I really don't think that he would respond at all. Also the ball idea is not a bad idea, but since I don't believe his vision is good at all I don't think that would work either. You would have to have pretty good vision to move from a ball flying at you.

As far as the UV goes, I think a lot of people put too much emphasis on the amounts and requirements of UV. More important than UV is that the animal receives usable calcium. There is a lot of usable calcium derived from bone and marrow. I remember when FR from Goanna Ranch had some of his ackie's blood calcium tested and the levels were normal, funny thing is he doesn't use UV bulbs on them at all, just incandescent bulbs.

I am pretty sure that more albinos have succumbed to D3 poisoning or inadequate diet then cancer or vision problems.

 

[chris allen]

My opinion is that I would not breed them myself if I were even capable and like you I reserve the right to keep that opinion if I so choose. I also welcome you to try and change it as I will keep an open mind to any and all evidence presented.

Your opinion is yours, and you have every right to it. I'm not here to try to change that. Hopefully though yours is based on information that you, yourself, has gathered and come to determine what you feel is correct.....nobody else.


I had a trio of blues from Ron back in 2003. The price of the albino I believe was right around $600. This is drastically less than what babies have sold for more recently. If anyone here considers investment quality, albino blues are up there. Like it or not, they are highly sought after and pretty valuable. That baby acted no different than the other babies, and in pictures I have you can clearly see it is by no means smaller or weaker, or inferior at all to the other babies. Had it been 110% blind do you think it would have been able to compete with the others for the crickets/food they got? Would it have thrived just as the others? Would chasing crickets for a baby albino that was 110% blind even be an option?

The male I have now is a great animal. He is approximately 5 years old and is a super animal. Honestly, its structure and build are better than most of the other tegus I have including my big black and whites. He not only looks great, but acts great as well. I read a bit that Chuey wrote earlier, and how his girlfriend understands and can tell when their reptiles need something, or something is wrong. If this animal was in pain, and suffering, I would know it....thats a fact. Even though reptiles(just as most animals) will try to mask a disease or injury, if you understand your animals you can read them and usually see this.

My current albino spent most of the summer outside here at the jersey shore and loved every minute of it. Did he act lethargic or not eat.....NO. Did he hide or burrow and stay out of the sun at all times(even though he probably could have and would have been able to digest and survive staying in he shade)....NO. Did he get any type of skin damage or other injuries from being outsided....NO. The fact is he did extremely well. The fact is he basked when he chose, ate well, lived a normal tegu life and probably loved every minute of it.

It was mentioned about many tests would have to be done to come to a final conclusion on their eyesight.....absolutely. You can't determine if all albino tegus are 110% blind by doing a single "glass test" to one or two tegus.

Bobby, how many albino tegus have you actually studied or observed? Is there any statistical information somewhere that backs up your OPINION?

Then to read about morals. Or my lack thereof I should say. Do you honestly think I am immorral because I choose to own an albino tegu? Because I think they are amazing looking animals? That Bobby, IS a personal attack on all of us that choose to have a different opinion than you. Whether or not this is your website, is it really ok for you to put others down for thinking differently? For choosing to like something maybe that you disagree with, we are now lacking morals?

I have many strong opinions, but I am not going to force them onto someone else. Often times I could sit here and criticize or put down lots of choices people make....from sales tactics to breeding methods to animals produced. But the reality of it is that Bobby will choose to do what he wants, just as I will. If you really think that the reptile industry has no morals, or that things have drastically changed....you either shouldn't be in this hobby or you haven't been in it long enough.

That link posted above where Bobby inquires about the het albino female blues and asks if they are argentines.......well, I was a little surprised when I saw that after reading his strong opinions on albinism in sun loving creatures. What exactly would change that or what new information is around now that wasn't 4 years ago?

This can absolutely be a constructive discussion, but geez......leave my morals out of it.

Chris Allen

 

[chris allen]

Here are a couple pictures.

 

[Wil]

Well put Chris. That is part of what I have been trying to point out. Opinions are every free thinking persons right, I myself have many opinions, but I don't try to force them onto people or try to "change" their minds about their opinion if it is different from my own.

I did find a video that I would love for anyone to argue that this albino iguana doesn't react to its keepers hand, it is at around the 1:20 point of the video.
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[chris allen]

One more.

 

[chris allen]

So from the pictures posted, do any of those animals look unhealthy? Actually, looking at it now, the baby albino looks like it was probably the biggest of the group. Odd.

 

[Guest]

Wil i have an idea for an experiment that might work? So like, have your basking bulb be one of those black bulbs or red bulbs that reptiles can't see and when he/she goes to bask, turn off the UVB bulb and see if it reacts. Wouldn't it theoretically be just like you or me being outside and everything suddenly goes dark? Just saying as a possible experiment.

 

[Wil]

Thats not a bad idea, but there are some problems with it. One is that when lights go out most tegus hide and sleep. The only true way to try and prove or disprove their vision would have to be performed by an optometrist on several albino animals.

 

[chelvis]

Sorry just a question about the D3 posioning and montiors with UV. I thought i was widely excepted that most monitor speices do fine without any UVB. I mean there are tails of monitors growing from hatchlings to adults with no UV lighting what so ever. The thought is their skin is too think to allow UV to penitrate and for D3 to be made so they either get it from their diet or make it some otherway. The cases of MBD in monitors comes are almost always ca defficancy when someone is cutting corners and feeding them a bad diet.

We know in tegus UV is very important. Raise a hatchling without UV and u'll almost always get MBD, their are enough owners here that have had this happen with their tegus even after feeding a varied and well managed diet, and i dont mean the one Bobby has, not that it is bad i just dont like the idea of ground turkey to reptiles. So tegus need UV there is no doubt in my mind on that.

As for D3 posining, hoe would that happen unless their is too much being offered in food. If you say an albino over produces it becuase there is no pigment is that not a handiecap becuase a normal blue does not appear to have that problem?

Chris i have to admit your albinos look healthy and in the right hads an albino tegu just like an albino alligator can thrive. And yes they make a great investment, i mean underground sold their offspring for $1200. I mean other reptiles and animals are breed for traits that are negative, so albino tegus are just another that could be added to the list.

 

[Wil]

UV doesn't have to penetrate skin, rather it is absorbed by the skin, beginning the process of the production of D3. Therefore I wouldn't think the thickness of the skin would make a difference. And there are discussions of UV and monitor care going on to this day.

Now am I saying that UV isn't beneficial? No, not at all, I am just saying that it is helpful but not the fix to calcium deficiencies. Most all cases of MBD is calcium related. How exactly is UV going to correct anything if the source of the problem isn't corrected?

And as far as the D3 poisoning, I am referring to people overdosing their animals by supplements.

How long does anyone think that a hatchling would survive without any UV exposure?

 

[chelvis]

Well we talking monitor or tegu. And the thickness of the skin has alot to do with any aborbtion. A savahana monitor hide is more like leather with the outter layers of skin be made up of dead skin cells, UV has to penetrate through this layer before it can hit cells that will react with it. Just like bone skudes on an alligator (which do not need UV to grow or thrive as seen on alligator farms) this dead cells can act like a block. Now i know reptiles shed their skins but not all their dead cells come off in one sheet. And different scales have been known to allow different wave lenghts in. A professor at my school studied light aborbtion on different igunana speices to see if there is a reason for their coloring and was surprised when the igunanas scales aborbed different light waves than that of anoles. Now im not saying this is proof of anything, just saying that different scale structure could be a reason why monitors tend to do better with less UV than tegus.

OK i unerstand where u getting with the D3 poisoning there.

I still disagree with MBD being calcium defficancy in tegus. Alot of owners on here calcuim dust everything for young tegus and then go on to whole foods. All good sources of calcium. I've seen plenty of times where its the UV light hasnt been changed in months or is too far away or not use at all. Im not saying its not enough UV just many none is reaching the animal. No UV means no D3 being made which means little to no calcium is being absorbed.

 

[JohnMatthew]

Your opinion is yours, and you have every right to it. I'm not here to try to change that. Hopefully though yours is based on information that you, yourself, has gathered and come to determine what you feel is correct.....nobody else.

All I can tell from your pictures is that your albino seems to have good weight. My opinion still stands that albino tegus have problems and I can't support breeding an animal when it's know before the eggs even hatch that the odds are against its leading a normal existence. Does anybody refute that these animals are born with skin/eye irritations? I think the argument lies in the extent of these "handicaps".

These videos only demonstrate the sight problems we're discussing. There are precious few videos of albino tegus or I'm bad at searching.
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I do hope it stays civil as I think this is an important topic that needs to be discussed and the more information the better.

 

[chris allen]

I would personally rather watch someone with a tad bit more experience explaining some about albinism and sun loving creatures.

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Now, I'm not saying that I know for sure what type of vision the albinos I have dealt with personally exactly have. But, I am telling you from my personal experience that a baby albino tegu can act just as normal as a non albino and same goes for an adult.


Those of us that have them are not looking for or need your support. If you don't like them you don't have to buy one, but like I said they are not common and highly valuable.

So, having said that.....JohnMatthew, what is your personal experience with them? How many? What ages?

Your opinion stands....I get that and respect that. What then is the point of the discussion if you have no direct experience to comment on? We can all do our research and post links to videos all day long, or copy and paste till the sun don't shine....but really if we are not comparing my experiences to yours, where can we really take the discussion?

We can hear they are weak, or blind, unhealthy, handicapped....yet I show pictures to show differently. I offer my experience with them to back up my opinion.....all really because I was lumped into a group of people considered to be immoral.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. If we are only going to discuss though our opinions, it really can't lead to anything but an arguement, which is not why I am here.

Chris Allen

 

[Wil]

For everyone who does not support the breeding of albinos, I am guessing that you also don't support an albino person marrying and having children either. What about someone who is deaf or blind which is genetic? What about MS or any other genetic disorder for that matter? Maybe all Rh negative people should not be allowed to have children because it has been proven that when 2 negative Rh are combined it can cause birth defects.

Now, through debate, everyone who has a strong opinion of not breeding anything with any type of "handicap" as it's been put, would have to have the same views as above.

Just my observation and opinion.

 

[tora]

That's not even comparable. Pairing for love is different then paring for profit or eyecandy. People know what they are signing up for, and if they have a handicapped baby then that's their decision. They shouldn't be stopped from having a child because it wont be as strong genetically as a normal baby. Tegu's don't choose their mate, or breed out of love, or have the need to have a bond with a child. Now, if they were selling their albino children for the price of a car, then yeah they should not be allowed to make babies.

 

[Wil]

Ok. Now who's to say that I have an albino just for profit or "eye candy"? If it is morally correct for people to knowingly have a handicapped child or a child that may not survive then how is it not moral to breed albinos? If I know that their vision isn't perfect and anyone who buys one is informed of that fact then where does the question of a lack of morals come into play?

Couldn't the same things be argued about beef? The cows don't choose who they are going to breed, they don't breed out of love, yet they are produced only to be butchered for meat and leather. Should we start questioning the farmer's morals? No, because people have a choice to eat meat or be vegetarians. Same thing with albinos, individuals need to make their own choice and decisions.

The biggest problem I have with all of this is that some people would judge my character based upon what I breed. Sounds a little like that guy with the funny mustache to me. I judge people by their actions and the words they speak far more than what they have in their collection.