Size

[TegusRawsome80]

Someone's rather defensive. Since I have absolutely no idea who you are, why would I automatically believe that you raised thousands of tegus? It's cool that you apparently did and all I wanted to know was what you told me. Thanks for providing that information.

 

[Dubya]

I think Roadkill may be a midget based on his strong defense of smallness. This is based on my own extensive study of midgets on cable TV and a very short co-worker with a Napolean complex.

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Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[reptastic]

Nice roadkill, do you always get this treatment in the forums? I remember a similar thread with a breeder who shall remain shameless

 

[Roadkill]

Someone asked that I defend myself, not the message I've been trying to convey, on a personal basis.

lol, Dubya, I don't know what to say...I consider myself average size. The research facility I currently work at, however....well, the people there have something different to say, as I'm known for things like them having to special order nitrile gloves for my size and for stacking equipment too high for anyone else to reach.

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Yes, reptastic, I have frequently gotten this treatment. Got worse from the St. Pierres, Rick Sisco, far worse from Bobby Hill, and others less known. Do I know what I'm talking about? Don't know for sure, but I'm still here and they aren't. However, it's not the glory I'm here for, I just want people to understand their animals better and through that hopefully help out the animals.

 

[TheTeguGurl]

Roadkill thank you for this information!

 

[laurarfl]

I'm glad your patient, Roadkill. It took me some time to get used to the tone of your posts. I do consider you to be a mentor of sorts I guess. You always challenge me to think and dig further to find the information. I have a lot of respect for your work and I guess it bothers me to see you get bashed on any forum as if you were some backyard breeder without an ounce of common sense.

 

[Roadkill]

Unfortunately, with the written word, people choose the tone they want to read in. There's little control in that. And I tend to be blunt, not exactly a good combination.

On the other hand, if I had more common sense, perhaps I'd date fewer psychopaths

 

[Raicardoso]

On a OT note, where in brazil were you Roadkill? I'm from there myself.

 

[Roadkill]

Sao Paulo state, primarily. One of the UNESP campuses.

 

[psychocircus91]

Based on what concrete evidence? I've raised thousands of tegus, no exaggeration, over the years. In that time I've noticed that in most cohorts you get a few individuals that grow REALLY fast. So fast that you need to separate them from the rest of the group because there's a good chance (and yes, I've seen it) that they will turn on their siblings and eat them. Likewise, there's also usually a few individuals that, despite being kept under the exact same conditions, offered the exact same food, have the exact same husbandry, just voluntarily don't eat as much and stay alarmingly small for quite a while (usually about 2 years). Then one day their appetite picks up and they grow rapidly to meet the general size of the rest of their siblings. This is likely an evolutionary strategy to ensure success of a generation. If conditions are optimal that year, those bruisers with the rapid growth are likely to succeed very well and pass on their genetics to the next generation (making the most of when it is good). During times of poor conditions, with restricted access to resources and increased competition, those bruisers are going to fail, chances are the 'regulars' are going to fail or at least have a hard time, but the 'runts' who don't eat much, don't need much resources to grow, will do fine, get through the hard times, and then take advantage of later times when conditions are more favourable, thereby ensuring continuation of the species.

Being small is not a guaranteed sign of illness or bad husbandry, sometimes it is just a sign of being small. Or do you take it out on the parents of your neighborhood and chastise them for abusing their kids and malnutrition when they have short kids?

I said unusual, not impossible... On what evidence? On the fact that most of us found that it was unusual that his tegu was that small.

Please show me where I ever accused the OP of poor care, since your message was directed towards me.

Instead of a personal attack with your last comment, how about just sharing information.

Thanks.

 

[laurarfl]

Psychocircus, I don't think the message was directed at you. There were a few messages that insinuated it was abnormal to have a tegu that small. I think that assumption is based on the fact that we see so much anecdotal evidence of big tegus. For people that have young tegus that are awake and eating heartily, they can achieve a very rapid growth. The growth is so fast and changes surprising that owners share them on forums. So we are used to seeing very large young tegus. No one starts a thread that says, "Hey, check this out!! I have a tegu that is 9months old and only 7inches long!!! Wow, this is so incredible!!!" lol.

 

[psychocircus91]

Well I assumed so because he posted, I posted, and then he posted again as if it were a response to me.
I was never calling him wrong, I was just questioning it. Most people would be surprised if they bought a yearling and it was 13 inches. This is why I thought it was unusual.
Regardless, we were asking OP such questions because isn't it POSSIBLE that his feeding regimen COULD have slowed growth? If we had more information COULDN'T we POSSIBLY suggest ways to stimulate growth?
Most of us were just trying to be helpful. Maybe everything is just fine with his care, but is it always best to assume so? He was asking if it was okay, and without knowing any further information, how could we know if it's completely normal? It depends.

 

[laurarfl]

It is fine to ask, always. I think the point was just being made that if someone has a small tegu, don't automatically assume that it is because of bad husbandry. I have a 9.5 mo old tegu that is 13-14 inches long. I just measured it. It has been hibernating for 7 or so months of its life. You just never know. Its mom was the same way and now she is 4ft and quite average size.

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Plus, if you read the first few responses after the OP, no one really asked about his husbandry. Instead there were comments that suggested it doesn't seem possible and it must be starved. Psychocircus, you were the first person I think to actually ask about the set-up.

 

[Roadkill]

No one was assuming there was anything ok with this tegu, pretty much everyone was going on the assumption that small is bad. Yes, my query of based on what evidence was directed at your statement. I don't feel I attacked you in the least. In science, if you make a claim that something is so, you need to provide evidence to back that claim or at least a logical basis to support your hypothesis. I'm sorry, but I don't take "because we all believe small is bad" as evidence. In fact, in contrast, what many of you seem to believe (rapid growth equals awesome/good), many vets and biologists, particularly in the context of captive husbandry, KNOW is actually quite bad. Under rapid growth, the body places a high demand on the skeleton for calcium. You may not be aware, but the skeleton apparently didn't evolve primarily to be a structural support, its first function appears to have primarily been as a calcium storage - because calcium is required for nearly every physiological process in the cell and body and is relatively quite rare in the environment. If they rapidly grow and don't have enough calcium and phosphorus in their intake, the bones wind up being sacrificed to supply the other physiological needs (one of the arguments supporting the theory that structural support is one of the lower demands of the skeleton) and the organism winds up with low density bones. Look around this forum, and others, and you typically see people offering poorly informed advice on calcium needs (ie. dusting). Ask any veterinarian that is well educated and versed in bone health of reptiles and they will tell you the overwhelming majority of captive raised reptiles have low density bones. Put these two together, and I will place $100 down confidently that if you take your rapid growth tegu in for a bone density analysis you will be told your tegu "could definitely be better". But, as we know, for most people, it's more important to them that their tegu reaches 3' in the first year than it is to worry about the health of things they can't immediately see.

 

[psychocircus91]

No one was assuming there was anything ok with this tegu, pretty much everyone was going on the assumption that small is bad. Yes, my query of based on what evidence was directed at your statement. I don't feel I attacked you in the least. In science, if you make a claim that something is so, you need to provide evidence to back that claim or at least a logical basis to support your hypothesis. I'm sorry, but I don't take "because we all believe small is bad" as evidence. In fact, in contrast, what many of you seem to believe (rapid growth equals awesome/good), many vets and biologists, particularly in the context of captive husbandry, KNOW is actually quite bad. Under rapid growth, the body places a high demand on the skeleton for calcium. You may not be aware, but the skeleton apparently didn't evolve primarily to be a structural support, its first function appears to have primarily been as a calcium storage - because calcium is required for nearly every physiological process in the cell and body and is relatively quite rare in the environment. If they rapidly grow and don't have enough calcium and phosphorus in their intake, the bones wind up being sacrificed to supply the other physiological needs (one of the arguments supporting the theory that structural support is one of the lower demands of the skeleton) and the organism winds up with low density bones. Look around this forum, and others, and you typically see people offering poorly informed advice on calcium needs (ie. dusting). Ask any veterinarian that is well educated and versed in bone health of reptiles and they will tell you the overwhelming majority of captive raised reptiles have low density bones. Put these two together, and I will place $100 down confidently that if you take your rapid growth tegu in for a bone density analysis you will be told your tegu "could definitely be better". But, as we know, for most people, it's more important to them that their tegu reaches 3' in the first year than it is to worry about the health of things they can't immediately see.

again... putting words in my mouth. Please show me where I stated small is bad? Do you define unusual and bad as the same thing? Does something over 13 inches at a year and a half old automatically mean poor bone health?

I have no problem with you defending your argument; I have no issue with being told I'm downright wrong if that's the case.

There are two issues. You keep putting words and my mouth and grouping me with others who commented on the post. Should I assume you're the same as other breeders such as Bobby Hill? No.

Also your sarcasm in the previous post was unnecessary. Sarcasm does not translate well on the internet, nor is it really appropriate in person without knowing the person well.

I am not in the wrong for saying it is uncommon for a tegu in captivity to be 13 inches at that age. Uncommon =/= bad.
I am not in the wrong for questioning you when I originally had no idea of your breeding background.
People do share misinformation (which I have not), which is exactly why I ask questions.

 

[Raicardoso]

Sao Paulo state, primarily. One of the UNESP campuses.

Awesome! That's where I was born and 95% of my family currently stays.