I am so fired up. I happened to catch this show on tv and they only show one side of the story about the pythons and nile monitors. They just point blank said that it's from people letting their animals loose. Why can't they suggest all the possible reasons instead of just accusing people and stirring up all reptile haters looking for an excuse to ban reptiles?
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"Killer Aliens" on Animal Planet
- Thread starter ashesc212
- Start date
Seriously. They wont even just be like "out of the thousands of species kept, only 7 are problem animals". I F'king hate animal planet now. They have been portraying every animal as a monster lately and its started up right after Steve Irwin died. Sure I wasnt his biggest fan but he really did help out a lot in getting wildlife conservation going. I was taking a bath with my rubber duck and when I looked up and saw on the TV they had this episode on predators. Portraying all these animals as viscious killers, literally making them look like evil creatures. And the Humane Society Fktards that don't know shyt about animals. Theyve never stepped foot out of an office and into actual nature but they somehow have an "expert opinion". Also, they are using broke ass bioligists who are the failures at their classes so they join with Fish and Game and get money to go on there and talk all the crap they want. Not to mention Fish and Game will do anything to get funded or put in the spotlight. Makes you wonder (as my friend once said) if their butts get jealous from all the crap that comes out their mouth.
F animal planet, F PETA, and F the biologists who graduated lowest of their class and wash up on the AP shows.
-Jon DeLong
F animal planet, F PETA, and F the biologists who graduated lowest of their class and wash up on the AP shows.
-Jon DeLong
the enigma
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this is madness...
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Beazer, go easy on "Fish and Game" Biologists. They're not all as bad as you're portraying them. I worked for Fish and Game in CA and I can tell you first hand that the fisheries biologist I worked for was NOT at all of this all exotics are evil mold. In fact, I once discovered a Piranha at one of the local lakes and though he also knew it was a Piranha and knew it would get major media attention, he lied to the angler who caught it and told him it was a Pacu just to avoid the type of mess you're talking about. He also did lots of research on the introduced tilapia that used to inhabit the rivers in CA - he even introduced many of the offspring to the local inner city lakes (closed systems that were already inhabited by native species which had been introduced from other parts of the country like striped bass for example) as foraging food for the bass there. Now, IF his supervisors knew about this, they would have been pissed off. But my boss was a rebel in the field and often made his own rules up. He was a brilliant biologist as well. Unfortunately, he passed away six years ago of stomach cancer but he is sorely missed.
I also knew the Biologist in FL who dealt with exotic species. His name is Paul Shafland (not sure if he's there anymore). Even though the FL waterways are overrun with exotic cichlids, Paul had an interesting take on them. He often said that diversity is good and that its when you have too many of the same species that problems occur. You can coexist with a dog and a cat and a tegu in your household but add three more people in their place and things get a lot more complicated in terms of competition for resources, feelings getting hurt, etc., etc.
Often exotics can work out their own niche and co-exist - this take on introduced species is NOT the accepted view taught in academia. But he's right to a point because juvenile cichilds are foraged upon by native species and may ultimately provide as much food for the native species to negate their negative effects when say a peacock bass grows to maturity and preys upon our native species. Equilibriums can be achieved given time. Usually, you don't have one run-away species completely dominating an ecosystem as made out to be in the media. For example, even with all the hype about the exotic lionfish off the East Coast, you'd be hard-pressed to dive a reef and see lionfish everywhere.
So don't lump all Fish and Game biologists as failures because not all of them subscribe to this mass hysteria that you're referring to when it comes to exotics. And not all Fish and Game Biologists were failures in school. Many chose this profession because they enjoy being in the field and didn't want a desk job or managerial job in the sciences. I no longer work for Fish and Game - I'm actually a Biology Teacher now, but I just wanted to give you another perspective.
I also knew the Biologist in FL who dealt with exotic species. His name is Paul Shafland (not sure if he's there anymore). Even though the FL waterways are overrun with exotic cichlids, Paul had an interesting take on them. He often said that diversity is good and that its when you have too many of the same species that problems occur. You can coexist with a dog and a cat and a tegu in your household but add three more people in their place and things get a lot more complicated in terms of competition for resources, feelings getting hurt, etc., etc.
Often exotics can work out their own niche and co-exist - this take on introduced species is NOT the accepted view taught in academia. But he's right to a point because juvenile cichilds are foraged upon by native species and may ultimately provide as much food for the native species to negate their negative effects when say a peacock bass grows to maturity and preys upon our native species. Equilibriums can be achieved given time. Usually, you don't have one run-away species completely dominating an ecosystem as made out to be in the media. For example, even with all the hype about the exotic lionfish off the East Coast, you'd be hard-pressed to dive a reef and see lionfish everywhere.
So don't lump all Fish and Game biologists as failures because not all of them subscribe to this mass hysteria that you're referring to when it comes to exotics. And not all Fish and Game Biologists were failures in school. Many chose this profession because they enjoy being in the field and didn't want a desk job or managerial job in the sciences. I no longer work for Fish and Game - I'm actually a Biology Teacher now, but I just wanted to give you another perspective.
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Beazer,
No problem. Listen, I also get what you're saying. It bothers me when people jump on these bandwagons and paint everything in one color. The whole, "look but don't touch" approach to parkland bothers the hell out of me because when I was a kid, we interacted with nature and learned by touching. Today, everything is hands-off, which drives me crazy. How can kids appreciate nature and preserve it if they've never been exposed to it. Trust me, there are lots of these little fads in the science field that piss me off too. The exotic species bandwagon is one of them. And you're right when you say it's a way for Government and NGO's to generate hysteria in hopes of getting more funding.
I used to work for the University of Maryland and saw what was going on with the oysters. For years, scientists in the VA / MD area were getting funding towards trying to determine whether or not they should introduce another species to the area that would be resistant to the diseases that our native oysters were succumbing to. And for years and years, they did more and more tests. Eventually, they decided against introducing the non-native species - but how much wasted funding did they burn up along the way? How much tax dollars went to waste? I think they knew ages ago that they didn't plan on introducing the oyster but kept running tests in order to garner more funding. The whole thing was dishonest.
I'm with you when you get riled up over this kid of hysteria. The media loves stories so it runs with these things - like global warming to an extent. Unfortunately, the scientific evidence is not always as revealing as scientists would like us to believe. Ditto for the exotic species "problems"
No problem. Listen, I also get what you're saying. It bothers me when people jump on these bandwagons and paint everything in one color. The whole, "look but don't touch" approach to parkland bothers the hell out of me because when I was a kid, we interacted with nature and learned by touching. Today, everything is hands-off, which drives me crazy. How can kids appreciate nature and preserve it if they've never been exposed to it. Trust me, there are lots of these little fads in the science field that piss me off too. The exotic species bandwagon is one of them. And you're right when you say it's a way for Government and NGO's to generate hysteria in hopes of getting more funding.
I used to work for the University of Maryland and saw what was going on with the oysters. For years, scientists in the VA / MD area were getting funding towards trying to determine whether or not they should introduce another species to the area that would be resistant to the diseases that our native oysters were succumbing to. And for years and years, they did more and more tests. Eventually, they decided against introducing the non-native species - but how much wasted funding did they burn up along the way? How much tax dollars went to waste? I think they knew ages ago that they didn't plan on introducing the oyster but kept running tests in order to garner more funding. The whole thing was dishonest.
I'm with you when you get riled up over this kid of hysteria. The media loves stories so it runs with these things - like global warming to an extent. Unfortunately, the scientific evidence is not always as revealing as scientists would like us to believe. Ditto for the exotic species "problems"
Ahh :bang :rant ... I am watching Python Hunters and this guy caught a beautiful long burmese and is like, "well that's one less even though we'll never be able to control the population at this point. We're gonna euthanize it!"
Seriously, they don't have any other options for these guys? Like try to adopt them out to people WITH the land and tools or give them to zoos across the nation?
Furthermore, if they are not gonna eradicate the population why are they essentially just taking pop shots at them. Its cruel. I understand that it has no natural predators in the Everglades, etc, but don't demonize them and cause hysteria among the masses. If they are in such mass numbers, your pop shots are doing nothing...and make no sense. Also, what about the fact that they uncovered all sorts of python bodies from the freeze last winter?
Let's eradicate all the humans that are overpopulating...we don't have enough predators and we are killing the ecosystem too...
Sorry to sound like a tree hugger here but really think about it. How are we any different than these pythons?
He even said, "Are we going to have a snake-filled future? Are snakes gonna be coming out of our bathroom, our pipes?" and shows a snake coming out of someone's shower. Yeah, that's really gonna thrill the majority of people who are petrified of snakes. Sorry, if you don't like exotic animals, don't live in Florida.
Ironically, I finally decided where I am going on vacation in two weeks and it is Florida. I already booked it and then I saw this stuff on tv. Seriously, when I go to the Everglades, if I see one of these "invasive" species, I'm not saying anything to "the authorities."
I think they should have a show on USArk on Animal Planet.
Seriously, they don't have any other options for these guys? Like try to adopt them out to people WITH the land and tools or give them to zoos across the nation?
Furthermore, if they are not gonna eradicate the population why are they essentially just taking pop shots at them. Its cruel. I understand that it has no natural predators in the Everglades, etc, but don't demonize them and cause hysteria among the masses. If they are in such mass numbers, your pop shots are doing nothing...and make no sense. Also, what about the fact that they uncovered all sorts of python bodies from the freeze last winter?
Let's eradicate all the humans that are overpopulating...we don't have enough predators and we are killing the ecosystem too...
Sorry to sound like a tree hugger here but really think about it. How are we any different than these pythons?
He even said, "Are we going to have a snake-filled future? Are snakes gonna be coming out of our bathroom, our pipes?" and shows a snake coming out of someone's shower. Yeah, that's really gonna thrill the majority of people who are petrified of snakes. Sorry, if you don't like exotic animals, don't live in Florida.
Ironically, I finally decided where I am going on vacation in two weeks and it is Florida. I already booked it and then I saw this stuff on tv. Seriously, when I go to the Everglades, if I see one of these "invasive" species, I'm not saying anything to "the authorities."
I think they should have a show on USArk on Animal Planet.
carcharios said:I also knew the Biologist in FL who dealt with exotic species. His name is Paul Shafland (not sure if he's there anymore). Even though the FL waterways are overrun with exotic cichlids, Paul had an interesting take on them. He often said that diversity is good and that its when you have too many of the same species that problems occur. You can coexist with a dog and a cat and a tegu in your household but add three more people in their place and things get a lot more complicated in terms of competition for resources, feelings getting hurt, etc., etc.
Often exotics can work out their own niche and co-exist - this take on introduced species is NOT the accepted view taught in academia. But he's right to a point because juvenile cichilds are foraged upon by native species and may ultimately provide as much food for the native species to negate their negative effects when say a peacock bass grows to maturity and preys upon our native species. Equilibriums can be achieved given time. Usually, you don't have one run-away species completely dominating an ecosystem as made out to be in the media. For example, even with all the hype about the exotic lionfish off the East Coast, you'd be hard-pressed to dive a reef and see lionfish everywhere.
.
This is a very interesting viewpoint. I was just discussing this with my fiance. Supposedly, the world was one giant land mass. Gradually the land shifted into continents. Additionally, animals have been known to adapt over time, etc. We all know this. The Earth is a shifting planet with its environment constantly changing every million years or so.
If this is all true, how can humans be the judge of what is right or what is wrong for a specific ecosystem? Shouldn't we just let mother nature sort it out?
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On that note, you would love this book called, "Eternal Frontier". The book is great. It outlines the extinction of the megafauna that used to live in North America and how what we think about as "normal" here is far from reality. Flannery, explains how there used to be dire wolves, an American lion that was bigger than it's African counterpart - even cheetahs here in the US prior to being hunted to extinction, etc. Most of the larger mammals that we have here now actually migrated north from South America and filled those empty niches. The book is truly an eye opener.
But you're right about Pangea - the one continent that split. And even naturally, animals migrate and compete. What's more is that while everyone is complaining about non-native animals, how many non-native plant species do we plant and have in our homes that come from Home Depot, Lowes, etc. Should we eradicate these too?
But you're right about Pangea - the one continent that split. And even naturally, animals migrate and compete. What's more is that while everyone is complaining about non-native animals, how many non-native plant species do we plant and have in our homes that come from Home Depot, Lowes, etc. Should we eradicate these too?
That is very interesting. I have heard that humans, for thousands of years, beyond recorded history have introduced animals to non-native environments. Reptile species including tortoises and turtles. So I guess in someways its "natural" but in other ways to this extent, how is it natural?
One thing I think about is humans. People say we have adapted out of the natural state and into beyond natural. At the sametime, isnt that natural for a species to evolve to such a point? Not to get off topic but its crazy stuff to think about. Though no matter what, Im all for less humans lol.
I love the topics ashesc gets started on and carcharios you seem like a cool dude to discuss things with. I have a hard time expressing my viewpoints for some reason so I try not to get too deep into conversations lol.
-Jon DeLong
One thing I think about is humans. People say we have adapted out of the natural state and into beyond natural. At the sametime, isnt that natural for a species to evolve to such a point? Not to get off topic but its crazy stuff to think about. Though no matter what, Im all for less humans lol.
I love the topics ashesc gets started on and carcharios you seem like a cool dude to discuss things with. I have a hard time expressing my viewpoints for some reason so I try not to get too deep into conversations lol.
-Jon DeLong
the enigma
New Member
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- 68
I was with a a bunch of freinds once at a party at my freinds house. A couple guys found a snapping turtle about 10in long. One guy shouted out "come on lets kill it!" I said "no we're not going to kill it". I then asked him why we should kill it...he replied "because it could hurt us"
I told him that he COULD hurt me so I decided I might kill him. He then said "I'm a person though...I can feel pain....I'm important...I have a family, I'm on this earth for a reason". "So is he" I replied as I let the shaken up snapper glide back into the pond.
It really bothers me when people have no regard for life...including animal life. I don't think we can point the finger on this one though. It's not just the fish and wildlife people....It's an idea, a way of thinking that is floating through the air, that society is buying into. It is media. The media has a tremendous grasp on people these days. If they decide to run a show about "killer snakes" they could have the whole world believing that all snakes are bad and that they are a scourge to manking and must be killed. On the other hand if they decide that all snakes are good and a necessary part of the ecosystem then every one would become a conservationist in an instant.
I told him that he COULD hurt me so I decided I might kill him. He then said "I'm a person though...I can feel pain....I'm important...I have a family, I'm on this earth for a reason". "So is he" I replied as I let the shaken up snapper glide back into the pond.
It really bothers me when people have no regard for life...including animal life. I don't think we can point the finger on this one though. It's not just the fish and wildlife people....It's an idea, a way of thinking that is floating through the air, that society is buying into. It is media. The media has a tremendous grasp on people these days. If they decide to run a show about "killer snakes" they could have the whole world believing that all snakes are bad and that they are a scourge to manking and must be killed. On the other hand if they decide that all snakes are good and a necessary part of the ecosystem then every one would become a conservationist in an instant.
Carcharios --> I will definitely pick up that book. It sounds really interesting! This is the type of stuff that keeps me up at night lol...for real. I have been having terrible insomnia lately.
Also, you're absolutely right about traveling to different ecosystems. For example, there is an island off of Australia that tiger snakes swam across to and essentially are kings of that island now. No one put them there, they swam! Their venom has been found to be more potent than the ones on the mainland.
Beazer --> Thanks ;-)
The Enigma --> Wow, it would be tough for me to be friends with them anymore! Did you still associate with them and did you change their viewpoint. How did it even hurt them? ARGH...that would have infuriated me! There's people like that out there all the time just killing helpless animals, chopping their heads off, etc... just because they don't like them or are afraid of them.
If you want to get into the biology of pain, animals certainly have pain receptors too! How else would they protect themselves otherwise? Pain receptors let us know that a surface is too hot, for example. Reptiles get off surfaces that are too hot and have been seen lifting their feet up so as not to touch hot rocks.
..and I truly believe they have some sort of emotional intuition as well.
I looked on Animal Planet's website because I wanted to write to them but I couldn't find out a way to contact them. Of course, it is a profitable organization and probably wouldn't have any interest in selling shows that don't pay off for them in advertising fees. Interestingly, they are a member of a conglomerate....the discovery channel has the same owners. I can't recall anything on the discovery channel that I've been offended by...but now I'm going to pay more attention.
Also, you're absolutely right about traveling to different ecosystems. For example, there is an island off of Australia that tiger snakes swam across to and essentially are kings of that island now. No one put them there, they swam! Their venom has been found to be more potent than the ones on the mainland.
Beazer --> Thanks ;-)
The Enigma --> Wow, it would be tough for me to be friends with them anymore! Did you still associate with them and did you change their viewpoint. How did it even hurt them? ARGH...that would have infuriated me! There's people like that out there all the time just killing helpless animals, chopping their heads off, etc... just because they don't like them or are afraid of them.
If you want to get into the biology of pain, animals certainly have pain receptors too! How else would they protect themselves otherwise? Pain receptors let us know that a surface is too hot, for example. Reptiles get off surfaces that are too hot and have been seen lifting their feet up so as not to touch hot rocks.
..and I truly believe they have some sort of emotional intuition as well.
I looked on Animal Planet's website because I wanted to write to them but I couldn't find out a way to contact them. Of course, it is a profitable organization and probably wouldn't have any interest in selling shows that don't pay off for them in advertising fees. Interestingly, they are a member of a conglomerate....the discovery channel has the same owners. I can't recall anything on the discovery channel that I've been offended by...but now I'm going to pay more attention.
Oh, I almost forgot. I wanted to post this:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100811/od_nm/us_italy_drugs_python_odd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100811/od_ ... python_odd</a><!-- m -->
Thanks guys for helping to destroy the image of snakes once again!
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100811/od_nm/us_italy_drugs_python_odd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100811/od_ ... python_odd</a><!-- m -->
Thanks guys for helping to destroy the image of snakes once again!
the enigma
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Well, ashesc212, its like this....I guess I don't really like the people in the group that held this attitude (it was like two guys)...I'm just nice to them because we have many mutual freinds. And most of the people at the party sided with me anyways xD
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Enigma,
Where I live in southern MD, everyone who sees a copperhead automatically kills it. It drives me crazy because they're gorgeous snakes and most are harmless if left alone. I personally will stop my car and move it off the road but I know some people around here have no regard for them.
I remember years ago, driving near Strathmore, NJ (close to Sea Isle City) and I saw a bunch of kids in a jeep purposely go out of their way to hit a terrapin that was crossing the road. They apparently thought it was funny after they ran it over because they were laughing and hollering. I don't think I've ever been so enraged in my life.
Ashesc,
You're right about reptiles swimming to different islands. Iguanas are famous for drifting on logs, etc. for great distances. Also, lots of exotic reptiles migrate via plant containers - especially their eggs. I've been at quite a few plant nurseries where I've seen exotic lizards running around - no doubt, their eggs hatched in the soil of imported plants.
Where I live in southern MD, everyone who sees a copperhead automatically kills it. It drives me crazy because they're gorgeous snakes and most are harmless if left alone. I personally will stop my car and move it off the road but I know some people around here have no regard for them.
I remember years ago, driving near Strathmore, NJ (close to Sea Isle City) and I saw a bunch of kids in a jeep purposely go out of their way to hit a terrapin that was crossing the road. They apparently thought it was funny after they ran it over because they were laughing and hollering. I don't think I've ever been so enraged in my life.
Ashesc,
You're right about reptiles swimming to different islands. Iguanas are famous for drifting on logs, etc. for great distances. Also, lots of exotic reptiles migrate via plant containers - especially their eggs. I've been at quite a few plant nurseries where I've seen exotic lizards running around - no doubt, their eggs hatched in the soil of imported plants.
Enigma- Whenever I would go out herping and run into an officer theyd always want to see the rattlesnakes I found (sometimes if it was pretty wed put them in a bucket or snake bag til the end of the night and photograph them then let them go exactly where we found em) and theyd be like "oooh that looks like one I just killed". Or the people who youd tell you like snakes too and theyd have to brag about killing tons of other snakes. But I noticed if you make a "friend" connection with the people and educate them and kinda also let em know its kinda stupid, but in a polite way, they catch on. Cant win them all, but some is better than none.
Ashesc- Thats really cool. Its amazing how that is the same with many gecko/monitor species as well. Even pythons. I use to work with what was at the time the 2nd/3rd largest collection in the US of Morelia nauta, which was only made up of 3.4. They are from the amethistina family and they are named nauta because the island they are on (Tanimbar) they could only have arrived via drift wood or some sort of debris after some sort of event. Soooo all in all 'nauta' is greek for boat. I believe there is a Rhacodactylus leachianus locale that is on an island where it drifted to and its main diet is crabs lol. Also, it would be interesting to review how a lot of Gehyra and Hemidactylus became a species.
Ashesc- Thats really cool. Its amazing how that is the same with many gecko/monitor species as well. Even pythons. I use to work with what was at the time the 2nd/3rd largest collection in the US of Morelia nauta, which was only made up of 3.4. They are from the amethistina family and they are named nauta because the island they are on (Tanimbar) they could only have arrived via drift wood or some sort of debris after some sort of event. Soooo all in all 'nauta' is greek for boat. I believe there is a Rhacodactylus leachianus locale that is on an island where it drifted to and its main diet is crabs lol. Also, it would be interesting to review how a lot of Gehyra and Hemidactylus became a species.
Citrinellus
New Member
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I had a similar discussion about Animal Planet on another fourm I use, but about "Uprising". Which is pretty much a program about animals being out to kill us ex. geese "purposely" flying into plane turbines to make them crash.
I'm really disappointed because I grew up watching Animal Planet. They definitely taken their station into a new direction with programs intended to scare people like untamed and uncut. I also don't understand the random reality shows like pit boss and whale wars either. I'm disgusted by how they portray animals now.
I'm really disappointed because I grew up watching Animal Planet. They definitely taken their station into a new direction with programs intended to scare people like untamed and uncut. I also don't understand the random reality shows like pit boss and whale wars either. I'm disgusted by how they portray animals now.
I haven't even bothered reading this whole post as I'm sure most if it is animal rights people as is usual with such threads. However, I'd like to offer you this question. What do you suggest we do with the thousands of large pythons loose in Florida? Do you have a better idea than HUMANELY killing them. I do not like the idea of killing them either, but I honestly don't see what else you expect them to do about it? Ps no matter what the origin of the pythons it is in some way related to the reptile industry. That is an undeniable fact they didn't swim to Florida for the nice beaches and pleasant people... They were brought here by us. I am again not an animal killer nor am I some ahole who enjoys torturing animals. But honestly? To say it could have nothing to do with the herp industry is just plain stupid. And to suggest that we leave them there is even less intelligent.
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TeguKid80,
The pythons in Florida are not going to overtake the habitats that they've been introduced into. For example, adults may eat alligators and perhaps Florida panther's and adult egrets, etc. but at the same time, juvenile pythons will be preyed on by the above mentioned species, hence providing an additional food source for the native species. Many of the exotic pythons will never make it to maturity. This is why I say, leave them alone. They won't become the apex predator because there is too much competition from the other native heavy-weights.
The pythons in Florida are not going to overtake the habitats that they've been introduced into. For example, adults may eat alligators and perhaps Florida panther's and adult egrets, etc. but at the same time, juvenile pythons will be preyed on by the above mentioned species, hence providing an additional food source for the native species. Many of the exotic pythons will never make it to maturity. This is why I say, leave them alone. They won't become the apex predator because there is too much competition from the other native heavy-weights.
the enigma
New Member
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- 68
Beazer, i'm sorry that the offcers were being jerks. All I'm saying is that this way of dealing with reptiles is not limited to a certain state or group of people.
The BABY pythons are pretty low on the food chain. Think about what they have above them. Birds, Gators, big fish...
The BABY pythons are pretty low on the food chain. Think about what they have above them. Birds, Gators, big fish...
