Legitimte Domestication?

[Blue Crab of PAIN!!!]

Hello again everyone!
I am currently reading through The Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkins. I just got through a section that discusses animal domestication and the Soviet Domesticated Silver Fox. As per this topic, the important facts pointed out in this book are how quickly a wild species of animal became a legitimately domesticated species and how great the changes were.

In short, you got from a normal, wily red fox (actually I'm not sure if they started with Red, they may have started with already silver strains) with all the bad smells, flighty temperament and all, and in about 50 years ended up with an animal that was every bit as good as a dog. It even started to look more like a dog than a fox too.

There are a few topics on this forum about domestication but I didn't notice anything really specific pertaining to the potential tegus and other reptiles may have to, under artificial selection, really become an almost entirely different animal.

How far and how quickly do you think a population of carefully pedigreed tegus can become truly domesticated, if at all? I'd personally love to see a legitimately domesticated reptile hit the market, intelligent AND well suited to human interaction (and is thus less likely to end up in an animal shelter).

If this CAN work for tegus, what about other reptiles like Green Iguanas and Chinese Alligators?

 

[Herplings]

None of these animals are 100% legitimately domesticated. In all complexity there really is no such thing. Not even in humans.

Its hard to even formulate a baseline for an accurate definition of legitimately domesticated.
A poodle, or a toy Chihuahua dog is still a meat eating predator, a pack hunter and scavenger. By breeding many generations of these lines, you make them familiar with and even enjoy human interaction. In dogs and horses and other pack animals, its not really being human that makes them respond to you, or do what you say. Its the fact that you establish dominants over the animal, that makes it treat you the way it does. Other things that make them this way is the types of food you feed them and how they feed, in home living condition ect. ect.
A fox is a horribly bad example to use for an experiment like this. I have been reading about it for years and because of the species, it is mostly disregarded by the science community.

This would be a much more difficult study to try to do with say a snake. Because they lack social behavior with their own species.

Does that mean they are not domesticated, or for the sake of a simpler word "tame". No. That does not mean that.
An animal will only respond to you to the genetic and evolutionary limits capable from its species.

As far as the animals looking different in shape and appearance. Well, that can happen do to weather conditions, selective breeding and diet. Its has nothing to do with the chemical make up of the animal, that does not change.

No matter what conditions you keep an apple tree in, or for how long and how many generation of apple tree. The apple tree will never bare oranges. Although, the color of the apples can change, the size can change and how many apples and how often the tree has apples can change. Even the taste of the apples can change.
But, at its core the chemical make up of the tree and its fruit will always be apples. This is basically called small scale evolution and based off of environment can happen rather rapidly. Nothing can change unless it previously holds the code for what it has changed into.

Thus is the case for the fox.

 

[JohnMatthew]

It depends how "domesticated" we're talking.. I know alot of snake species were considered unhandleable and just plain nasty early on after joining the herping hobby. As further generations are CBB they seem to calm down more quickly and easily than their F1 or F2 counterparts. I've also heard or read that breeding two tame examples of a snake species will often result in babies that are more docile. A couple notable examples are reticulated pythons and green anacondas.. Not as many people work with subsequent CBB or tame green condas but for those who do like Kelly Haller, you can pick up some incredibly calm babies.

 

[reptastic]

i dont think any reptile can truly be tamed, you may be able to get a species to interact better with their human counterparts but as far as truly taming i dont think its possible since reptiles rely mostly on instincts and lack the emotional diposition of mammals!

 

[chelvis]

What was seen in the fox trait was not unsual in mammals. Why? Because as humans we choice to breed animals that remind us of the young (neonates). This invokes a nurturing side to raise the animal. With the fox they started off silver. The choice the pups that where the friendliest (that would approch the researchers) to breed. These animals also showed charcters of underdevelopement that in nature might have be seen as a weakness and been sorted out. Over the generations traits like floppy ears over the pointed showed up, spotting in the coat color, a rounder head and larger eyes were all charcteristic of these "tame" foxes. Were the domestic, no. Domestication takes hundereds of years, if these foxes were to be released they would go back to being wild foxes, even if you recaptured on and tried to retrain it there is a 99% chance it wouldn't change. When a domestic animal goes wild its called feral and it can in some cases be re-trained. Wild mustages can be broken, wild hogs can be calmed (dont try it though), feral dogs can learn to live with humans. The cat is a wierd one.... i wouldnt even really call them dometicated.

As for reptiles, its not going to happen. Reptiles will become tamer if gentically selected. In most cases they are breed for colors rather than additute. But like said earlier, these animals do not have an herd, pack or group social sturture which makes it hard to really dometicate them. Those who calm down have realized there is something to gain by living and tolerating humans, but i can not see a reptile become domesticated like the dog or horse has.

 

[Blue Crab of PAIN!!!]

Thank you all for your input. I guess I should clarify what I mean by "domesticated". I don't mean something like a Pomeranian or a fancy goldfish, I mean something which is at least somewhat physically distinct from their wild counterparts and are, in general, more tolerant and social with humans and maybe other animals. The ultimate goal in my eyes would be to produce a reptile which, as stated earlier, has the right mixture of of requirements and considerations so it will be less likely to flood unwanted animal shelters like green iguanas, nile monitors and caiman/alligators do.

I think as far as crocodilians go if one starts with the Chinese Alligator, which is already fairly small and docile (well, it's speculated to be docile, the hatchlings apparently handle human interactions better than other crocodilians do), it wouldn't be very hard or take very long to produce a crocodilian which may actually be somewhat reasonable to keep as a pet. If it is pedigreed for smaller size and better temperament, half the work is already done opposed to starting with a bigger american alligator or nastier caiman.

 

[AB^]

This is the Fox Experiment.

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[Blue Crab of PAIN!!!]

My last comment got my curious, If you can get a wolf down to a poodle or a Pomeranian, what do you think the lizard equivalent of one of those annoying fluffy little sh##-dogs would be?

 

[chelvis]

Well we got leo geckos that are so bright in color that in the wild would be deadly. We have albino tegus that would be blind in the wild, beardies that have some great coloring they might as well be living art.

AS for a popular reptile pet that would not end up in the shelter... impossible. Purebred highly disirable dogs are in shelters now, same with cats and all sorts of animals, humans are bad with long term comitment. But i get what your going for, a reptile that people would actully enjoy having for a long time. Problem is unlike a dog or cat reptiles have alot more requiremnts. No matter how you breed them most will still need a live or fresh diet, commercial diets won't be the best to replicate their diet. Lighting and heating will be needed again no way to breed that requirement out. Caging will still be needed, even an animal that is docil and walking around will still need a place in the house where it can have some of its natural enviroment mimiced. These are things that selective breeding can not change and would make it really hard to make a domestic reptile.

As for the drawf alligator idea a few things going against it. One its highly endagered, so very little likly hood this will eneter the pet trade. Two it lives and relyes on an aquatic habitate. Humans are not good a replicating aquatic homes for aniamls, as an aqarium worker or fish care taker at a pet store and they'll tell you its not a wallk in the park. SO unless you have a chemical free pool not going to work. Three they require i life or fresh diet, yes there is a mazuir pelleted corocdile food, but as any southern alligator farmer, chicken and fish are much better for them.

Repitle wise for domestication i'd look to smaller animals such as leos or beardies which have changed alot from their wild cousins. They don't require to much work and they seem to be making big strides into the pet market now.

 

[Herplings]

I have dozens of Reptiles. While some like my Gator is harder to take care of then my Boas, Monitors, or even my 17 foot Retics. They are much easier to take care of then my two house cats that drive me crazy. :fc :lol:

 

[chelvis]

Ya house cats can be harder to work with then alot of aniamls trust me, working with them in the vet hospital is alot more difficult then working with the tigers i work with now.

 

[Herplings]

Ya house cats can be harder to work with then alot of aniamls trust me, working with them in the vet hospital is alot more difficult then working with the tigers i work with now.

Hahaha! I bet.

 

[Guest]

"Those who calm down have realized there is something to gain by living and tolerating humans, but i can not see a reptile become domesticated like the dog or horse has."

That's a pretty good interpretation imo and I agree.

However, using the words "realized" and "something to gain" makes me think that reptiles that have the ability to do as you mentioned, means they are intelligent enough to "know the difference".

By that I mean they are clearly intelligent enough to "know the difference" in their condition(s), their treatment and their ability to "trust" in us, as their keepers.

Let me give you an example:

I know for a fact my tegu knows me by scent, knows me by voice and knows me visually. I know he trusts me because when the vet tried to hold him, he was going crazy - to the point he was death-rolling in her hands trying to escape...He was nervous and highly aggro towards her, so she set him down...The minute I picked him up, he stayed nestled right in my arms, totally calmed down and felt, imo, safe. So, the vet proceeded to give him a quick exam while I held him.

That's a pretty big display of trust and safety for a "lizard" to exhibit if you ask me. It was pretty incredible, even the vet commented on his "trust" in me and the security he exhibited towards me.

Does this means he's tame or domesticated? I sure think it supports the idea that he is tamer then a wild tegu that's programmed to be afraid of us would be.

I also think that, given enough time, tegus that are pets, can be to some degree, domesticated. There's plenty of evidence of this on youtube with numerous tegu owners - iguanas as well.

I honestly believe that what work you put into your pet, you get OUT of your pet - reptiles or other. Tegus are highly independent but they also enjoy attention - in my 37 years I haven't found many intelligent creatures that don't grow fond of attention.

The approach in giving that attention is, well, more of the mystery, at least in my experiences.

 

[Draco D Tegu]

My last comment got my curious, If you can get a wolf down to a poodle or a Pomeranian, what do you think the lizard equivalent of one of those annoying fluffy little sh##-dogs would be?

An anole?

:-D

 

[SjRrMc]

My last comment got my curious, If you can get a wolf down to a poodle or a Pomeranian, what do you think the lizard equivalent of one of those annoying fluffy little sh##-dogs would be?

An anole?

:-D

no a tokay gecko that would it.