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Some questions about my ackies...

NorCalAl

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
76
(this is posted at KS and Varanus, also, but I want as wide an audience as possible - and maybe others can learn from the answers)

OK, so I got my trio home about ten days ago. They were in a 3x2x2 and that's what I've put them in at my house. I added about 4" of a mulch/EcoEarth substrate, a retes stack and a hide on the cool side. The cage is a Showcase 3x2x2.

Some stats: 135-110f on the top of the stack under two 50w basking lamps. Low temp on floor of cool side averages around 72f. Ambient humidity in cage around 35-40%.

The first four days or so that I had them, they were all out, all day. They were ready for feeding at 8am and ate everything they could. Then the male started staying in the hide. I would dump in 20-25 largeish crickets every morning plus either 4-5 cockroaches or 3-4 ft pinkies. Usually 2 days of roaches, then one day of pinkies.

So the male started staying in the hide. Since I could lift it, I did to make sure he hadn't passed away or something else happened. So that's my first question: should I be checking on him?

Yesterday, I had finished prepping the other cage. Same make and model, but with the cold weather, I added a 55w radiant heat panel to the cool side ceiling to keep temps up. I set the Helix control for 85 and placed the probe about midway between substrate and panel. I also changed substrate to be a 1/3 ecoearth, 1/3 decomposed granite and 1/3 soil mixture. I deepened the mix to about 7" in the back, 2" in the front. I added another hide and a large cork tube. I buried both hides in the substrate, leaving it low enough to show the openings to the hides. I also have a 3' T8 40w UV bulb (10.0) in the front tube inset in the cage.

I took the trio out of the first cage, put them in a tub with 80f water and let them soak while I finished up with the new digs. After drying them, I put them in the new cage. Fed them about 20 minutes later (they all basked at the top of the stack coming out of the water). They all ate nicely.

Going in today, the male and one female are both no-shows. I can see where they've gone into a hide and moved substrate around. The other female is out and ready to eat.

Sorry for the book, but I am new and I'm trying to answer any questions you guys might have so you can offer some help.

1) should I be checking on them or am I simply adding to the stress level?
2) should I be worried that I don't see the male (or whoever) when I go in the room? Should I assume they hear me coming and dive under the hides? I'm aware that in the wild they'd do their best to hide from me if they knew I was coming.
3) since the food does all disappear, should I be worried?!

I am trying to breed and all of the stories I hear of egg-eating also complicates this for me. I want to make sure, if I can, that I don't miss a clutch. I know one female was gravid when I picked up the trio and the other had laid the night before. Naturally.

Any help you all can offer would be very much appreciated. I have taken some shots of the cage and placed them on my smugmug page under 'ackie shots' at norcalal.smugmug.com.
 

TegusRawsome80

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
766
Bigger cage. Way bigger if possible. 6 foot would be a lot better for a trio. 18-24 inches substrate. I already posted on an earlier thread that soil mixed with sand would work much better than what you posted you have them on. You don't want the cold end to be 85 in my opinion. I would leave it unheated. They like variety and options with a large temp gradient. If they need warmth they'll bask in the hot side, if not then they won't. They need more than one "hide" but that would require bigger cage. These are not snakes and they move around a LOT.
 

NorCalAl

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
76
Substrate of that depth has substantial weight. About 100lbs per cubic feet. A 6x2.5 with 18" of substrate would be over a ton. What the heck type of enclosure, short of the trough method, would work?


One edit: at the soil level, the temp at the cool end is 75. 70 in the morning. There are two buried hides as well as the stack.

I've considered linking my two 3x2x2 cages with a 3" diameter PVC pipe and I've bought the drill bit and pipe. Just a bit hesitant to drill through the walls of $600 of cages. Looking to buy a new cage now.
 

NorCalAl

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
76
Not workable in this room. I need to stick with a 'shelf-able' type of enclosure. I've had an offer for a 6x2.5x2.5 plywood with pvc bonded with a 10" litter dam. That means it will have the pluses of a boaphile/animal plastics type enclosure with the added strength and beauty of a wood one.

Guys, if I have to use a nest box - how big? 1x1x1.5?
 

TegusRawsome80

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
766
Don't use a nest box. That's limiting their environment and there's no guarantee they'll actually use it. Unless you want to risk the female's life due to improper nesting, you should get a much larger cage. 6 by 3 by 3. 18 inches of substrate 18 inches of vertical space. Custom make it so that you can shovel the substrate out if need be. And beauty shouldn't be a factor in your monitor's caging, only what is healthy for them in my opinion.
 

NorCalAl

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
76
I'm working (not personally - that's being left to a pro) on a 6x3x3 now. They actually said two to two and a half weeks for delivery. So I did add a nest box. So much for all the info I got BEFORE I bought them. Two people, one with a masters in herpetology, one a breeder with ackie eggs when I saw them, gave me vastly different information.
Most of that info I got is in my first post in this thread. Given that, as well as the amount of contradictory information on the web, I think I've done ok. I will make it better as soon as I can. Now to figure out how to set them up once I have them.... Big, strong racks. Sigh.
 

TegusRawsome80

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
766
Why do you need racks? You are trying to fit the species to your needs. I hate to say this, but I don't think you've done okay. They're in a cage that would be questionable for a single animal with inadequate substrate. I don't understand why you want to keep monitors in racks. What is the reason again? If you wanted to legitimately make the animals happy you would design some sort of trough that would work out for your situation. If you can fit racks of 6 by 3 by 3 cages you can easily fit a trough. You aren't worrying that much about the animals well being compared to how much you're worrying about fitting the animal to what you want them to be.
 

NorCalAl

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
76
I guess what I could do is spend my time defending myself. I'm not going to. I did the research and felt the two personal sources I had were knowledgeable and trustworthy. Both had breeding success. All of those who've attacked me (instead of providing some direction about how I can do what I need to do within my means) are people unknown to me. Like many things, whether it be writing an algorithm or fixing a Harley, there's many 'right' ways of doing things. The problem I'm having here is like most issues on the web: everyone is an expert. I'm not questioning your expertise - and I didn't question that of the folks I talked to beforehand. Since you question my knowledge, should I demand your sources? Your proof that you are right? Can I see the results of the tests you ran to determine one method is 'better' than the other? Or is it that you've done it one way, perhaps copying some other keeper's methods and so have something vested in those methods but no comparative results to show me that a trough is better than a melamine cage? Or that four feet is qualitatively inadequate and six feet is tested as superior? Is that based on subjective experience?

I mean, since I took the advice of people I actually SAW breeding ackies and that's turned out to be wrong, should I now take someone else's advice and not question the validity?

PE says a four foot cage is adequate for a small group of ackies. They were breeding in a three foot cage. I'm at least trying to make things better for them. Sorry that, at the same time, I'm considering my needs. Shame on me. Again, I thought the two were compatible given my research.

I'm getting a - for what I've read on caresheets, from breeders and from those I've talked to personally - large cage. I'm planning on providing more depth than that called for by those same sources. I guess I can't please everyone.

When I was really involved in home theater, I'd purchased a new SVS subwoofer. The specs were (and still are) very respectable. Yet there were those out there who still poo-pooed it and insisted that only something truly spendy was adequate. I bought a M&K 5000MkII. $3000 worth of incredible sub. Even then, there were those who could spend $25k on a sub that thought I still hadn't done enough. Is a comparison between animal husbandry and home theater speaker choices an apples and apples? Not even.

I could compare break-in methods for Harley's or programming methods or whatever. Some people always think they have the only way to do things. The difference, in MANY cases, is that last .2% of performance. Arguing whether oxygen-free speaker wire is better or if the ackies need a 6' trough vs a 6' wood, plastic and glass enclosure over the internet based on opinion is a waste of time. Insulting other people for their choices based on your own is the same.

I know some people keep tegus in three foot cages and people should say something. If I wasn't trying to improve the lot of my animals, I could accept some of that same criticism. However, when no empirical evidence is suggested, no source material outside the writer's opinion is given and the art of monitor keeping is something that is constantly progressing, I find the attacks unwarranted. Ten years or even two years from now, we keepers may well find today's methods outdated and primitive. My ideas were based on research, not aesthetics. If you want to help, offer help. If you want to criticize and/or attack, varanus.net offers that as part of their service. Actually, Frank and Justin were both more helpful.

Should we not ask for advice? I thought the idea of the monitor forum here was just for this purpose - and to avoid attacks. You don't know what I'm thinking or why I'm doing things outside of what I write here. Don't presuppose you know me. I don't know you.

That's enough from me.
 

TegusRawsome80

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
766
I gave you advice, you refuted the advice hence you clearly do not want advice. You seem to want me to tell you that it's okay or that they'll thrive in a limited set up. All the success stories I've seen with ackies have been in setups such as I described. Who knows if your setup will work or not. Maybe it will, but I wouldn't chance it if I could provide better. That is all.
 

NorCalAl

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
76
My long-winded post was basically: we don't have the final answer on "what's best" and I'm seeking alternatives. I'm not arguing against anyone.

I have had large parrots for 40 years. I have authoritative books written in the 1970's which espouse the feeding of seed as a primary food. My chosen species, the Eclectus, was called "dull, except in color" and not a good talkers. Come the 1990's and we found the Eclectus, on a largely pellet based diet, is one of the best talkers, possibly rivaling the famed African Grey. Now in the '10's, we've discovered that the digestive tract of the Ekkie is more suited to rainforest fruits than pellets or seed and should compose the majority of that food.

Had folks not questioned the status quo, we might still be feeding Ekkies seed - and Voulkmann, the self-proclaimed 'avian experts' when it comes to food, still offers an Ekkie food based almost exclusively on seed!

I was not arguing with you and while you're correct that I would have LOVED it if my original findings are what would also be perfect for my monitors - I'm willing to change. Racks are just that, racks. A place to use the limited space I have to set up multiple cages. Troughs would not work either aesthetically nor make good use of the room. I'm asking for workable alternatives - not trying to say you are wrong. Sometimes folks treat any questioning of their methods very defensively. Please don't take my seeking of another way as a refutation of either your advice or method.

What I'm exploring now should take the best of both worlds provided I can get someone who can help. A 96L x 30D metal rack with basically 12-14" of metal on all four sides. Hope that makes some sense. Then, above that, I would use traditional PVCX or whatever to construct the rest of the cage. And of course, there would be the standard aluminum tracked sliding glass in front. I could bolt or unbolt the top to empty the substrate (I'm thinking of welding the metal pieces. I should be able to get two stacked that way using some of those industrial type shelving units found at Lowe's or HD.

Now, I have ZERO idea of cost. The racks with shelves cost around $210. I've no idea what thickness of metal plate I'd need. I know my skidplates are 3/16's and those withstand outrageous abuse, so ... 1/16"? Aluminum? But once that box is done, then the top should be easier. And who knows, dependent on cost, maybe this would allow others to keep multiple sets in the same floor space.

Sorry if I seemed pissy last night. I just feel that "the" answer has not been arrived at yet and I'm hoping for an alternate. I CLEARLY do want advice, but not rigid thinking or methodologies. I read last night that in the 80's, it was common practice to feed monitors only once a week. What if no one had questioned that? Balls in the wild use other animals burrows but in captivity are often kept on paper towels in sweater boxes, seemingly without harm to them. If every keeper had stuck with using some form of the wild lifestyle, where would ball keepers be today?

Again, please take no offense and do not take my questioning as refutation of your advice. Maybe we'll find a NEW new way of keeping monitors together!
 

Bntegus

Member
Messages
160
TegusRawsome80 said:
I gave you advice, you refuted the advice hence you clearly do not want advice. You seem to want me to tell you that it's okay or that they'll thrive in a limited set up. All the success stories I've seen with ackies have been in setups such as I described. Who knows if your setup will work or not. Maybe it will, but I wouldn't chance it if I could provide better. That is all.

i agree you have asked frank and others then came here and still didnt like what you heard. ackies will breed in a 2x2 lol thats why everyone has them.
 

NorCalAl

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
76
I asked here, on KS and varanus all at the same time. Hoping for differing opinions. <shaking head> I guess that's the wrong approach.
 

Bntegus

Member
Messages
160
im not trying to be a **** just saying my 2cents. when people ask there opinions you will never here what you want there is no right or wrong way first you have to try to see what works for you then ask for help start out basic.
 

NorCalAl

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
76
When I have the new cage complete - I will post pictures. I'm no handyman, nor am I rich, but I'm willing to spend the money to get the right product.
 

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