hybrids are trash?

[roastedspleen]

i have noticed lately while browsing about hyrbrid species on different forums i noticed a lot of people talking about how hybrids are trash, like the carpondro and carpet x ball. they say this without a reason too, which is weird because i want to know why people think hybridized animals are bad. can anyone shed some light on this topic?

 

[RamblinRose]

To make a long story short....
Some people look at it as "playing God" to make a profit.
Some do it to be known as the "one" who cross bred it first.
Some just to see if it can be done.
Everyone has their own feeling with this type of thing.

 

[Josh]

I personally wouldn't say they are trash. No animal is trash in my eyes though...
There IS something to say about cross-breeding though. Some people frown on it because in some species and in some rare cases, it can actually be bad for the animal.

 

[txrepgirl]

I have been wondering this for a long time. Why people think that hybrids are bad. How do they know it can't happen in the wild ( sometimes it does with diffenrent animals ). I have three hybrids and I'm very happy with them. I think as long as Argentines are bred with Argentines and not Columbians I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

[Diesel]

I have seen a lot of people hating on hybrids too. Like any kind of dog mix is frowned upon big time. I think if the animal doesn't have anything wrong or has any discomfort then it is fine.

 

[monstruo-the-tegu]

omg people hate my jack russel beagle because hes a mix and i see nothing wrong with hybrid animals at all

 

[laurarfl]

Some people are concerned that the species will not remain pure. They are concerned that by breeding hybrids in captivity, irresponsible owners will mix hybrid gentics into a pure line without knowing or disclosing the fact, thus diluting the purity of the original line.

I happen to like some hybrids. But I don't care for pure strains of species with odd characteristics like leatherback dragons or scaleless snakes. But to each his own.

 

[james.w]

The biggest reason is like stated above, how to keep the lines pure with hybrids out there?

 

[JohnMatthew]

I think one of the greatest fears hybridization carries for reptile "purists" is whether or not an animal is what the seller says it is.. A good example is the leucistic black rat snake on the market today.. None of them are pure black rats, they all have varying degrees of texas rat in them(they were hybridized in order to add the leucistic gene to black rats). They've been outcrossed to the extreme with other black rats to the point that the hets(normal looking snakes carrying the leucistic gene) look identical to black rat snakes even though their genepool has been muddied by adding the texas rat. The only way to know what you really have is genetic testing and I hear that's rather expensive.. Then you have the added problem of what to label your animals as when selling them.. It seems harmless enough and it generally is for the first generation or two but after these hybrids have been bred back to one parent type or the other for several generations, unless impecable records are kept by the original and ALL subsequent breeders that work with these animals, the purity of that animals stock can be greatly compromised by those buying and selling them for breeding programs thinking they're pure species then breeding, labeling and selling them as such. For those who don't care whether the animals they're working with are pure or not it's no big deal(if you know they aren't though PLEASE label them as such when selling or rehoming and ask the person who receives them to do the same). For those who do care, it is a big deal and every year getting pure species becomes more and more difficult. Some even resort to wild collecting their own in order to be sure and isn't that one of the main reasons we started breeding these animals in the first place, to protect wild populations? Speaking of wild populations, what if in the future the black rat snake requires captive breeding to maintain wild populations and all that's left to us are probable hybrids? I dunno, most would say it doesn't matter cause they still look like black rats but it just doesn't seem the same to me.. /end rant

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I have seen a lot of people hating on hybrids too. Like any kind of dog mix is frowned upon big time. I think if the animal doesn't have anything wrong or has any discomfort then it is fine.

Aren't all of the dog types descendants of domesticated wolves? Translating this to herp lingo they'd be more intergrades than hybrids I think and that's a whole different ball game.

 

[Dana C]

I go back to the why? I don't see any advantage to an outcross of Argentine to Colombian. What will be gained? This thread originally started on a "it would be cool" note. I don't have any problem with hybrids IF those attempting to out cross their animals or reptiles know what they are doing and why they are doing it. "Cool looking" in this case is not even remotely enough of a reason.
John makes an excellent point in pointing out the value of genetic purity to maintain a species or sub species of any animal. Like he says, it is a very big deal. I have some snakes which I hope to breed when they get a little older. These include Christmas Mtn (South Texas locality specific), Bull Snakes, Florida Albino Pine Snakes, (yes the color phase does occur in the wild), and what is likely the rarest snake in North America, (in the wild), Louisiana Black Pine snakes. I wouldn't dream of crossing them as some of them are almost gone from their native habitat.

There are far too many people out their breeding reptiles that claim that their specimens for sale are het for this and homo for that. Yet what I haven't read or heard anyone discuss that genes for different traits are dominant or recessive. Ball and other pythons bred for color are fine. People breed one color with another in hopes of creating either a new or enhanced coloration. That is breeding a ball python with another ball python is ok. Like I responded to an earlier post about the cross between a Blood Python with a Burmese which supposedly created a 200# snake is just plain wrong. From what I have heard, Blood Pythons can be or usually are hard to handle and are ill tempered. Now we have a 200# ill tempered snake. I am fairly sure that the story is just that a story, and not true but even the thought is scary. If it is true, it paints a picture of a breeder who is criminally irresponsible and one whose family tree doesn't branch. It is this type of person and their actions that will expand the list of banned reptiles because of their ignorance and stupidity.
I am sorry but I feel very strongly about this.

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On a lighter note, I just looked again at my avatar....There is nothing like the reality check of seeing a picture of the top of your head. Holy S____
I need Rogain in 55 gallon barrels.

 

[Josh]

Thanks for the great genetics explanation JohnMatthew!

 

[laurarfl]

Hybrids are man-made and intergrades are naturally occurring matches between two specimens of differing species or subspecies. Dogs we have today are considered breeds within a species and would be the result of selective breeding, ie reptile morphologies.

 

[Dana C]

Laura, you amaze me with the depth of your knowledge. I am serious here. I am truly in awe. Tell me about your background and education if you will. PM me if you wish. To repeat your avatar on another site, you truly are "God like".

 

[JohnMatthew]

With so many subspecies of wolves I just assumed dogs were descendants from several of them. I wouldn't be surprised if studies have been done, would be a fun read!

 

[TeguBuzz]

Hybrids are man-made and intergrades are naturally occurring matches between two specimens of differing species or subspecies. Dogs we have today are considered breeds within a species and would be the result of selective breeding, ie reptile morphologies.

Very well said.

 

[laurarfl]

@JohnMatthew, the classification changed so much since the 1700's, like it always does. I've seen studies that claim one wolf species was the origin and studies that claim there were multiple origins. Regardless, dogs are not considered hybrids because of the genetic closeness. <shrug>

@Dana, I appreciate the compliment, but I have never been very fond of the "God-like" membership title on the other forum. I just have weird trivial knowledge and like to share it with people.

My background: I graduated high school a year early. I planned to be a pre-vet major, went to U of FL. I worked with med research that developed a current osteoporosis drug where I learned a bit about bone histology and some really high tech microscopy (and cared for 300 rats) and equine reproductive physiology where I worked in the lab and maintained our little pony herd. I also volunteered for the equine neonatology unit which meant I babysat medically sensitive expensive racehorses and their babies during the night. I partied too much and my GPA fell, so I came back home. I majored in Cardiopulmonary Sciences at UCF, specialized in life support for newborns at Arnold Palmer Hospital and pediatric ICU, then quit to raise a family. I began teaching science part-time, started a reptile education business. I'm hoping to finish my master's in education this yer and start my PhD next year. Really, I'm just a science nerd and I like to read a lot. I have a complete fascination with anatomy and physiology.

 

[Hybrid]

I often hear people hating on hybrids for no reason. They say that they are the devil, abominations, etc. without any reason but the fact that they are crossbreeds.
I have seen people who are in it for the money and don't give a crap. I think it is very irresponsible too make a hybrid to look like a pure species. Why even add the luestic gene to a hybrid in the first place! They all look the same. Hybridization with a goal I think is fine. People have to realize that no matter how many times you cross a hybrid

 

[Draco D Tegu]

Hmmm I gotta wonder though about the label of hybrid being a "man made" invention being applicable at all times.......coydogs and wolfdog hybrids often occur from feral dogs pairing with either coyotes or wolves.....(although TYPICALLY packs will kill a dog found alone) yet we consider the offspring hybrids.


I personally don't find fault with people breeding for a trait. We did it with dogs for appearance and utility. We've done it with horses (to the point where the QH lines were so convoluted by Impressive because they were breeding for muscle mass) for show. We've done it with cattle for food supply. We've crossbred horses and donkeys for pack animals. We have manipulated genetics so much in our domesticated animals, I see no distinction between doing it with reptiles or doing it with other species.

PS....Laura...LOL your experience is similar to my background. I work in research too Gotta love the entry level, "you got rat duty" job . Of course, now days, they actually have husbandry staff for that. 'Twasn't the case back in the day.

 

[Dana C]

With so many subspecies of wolves I just assumed dogs were descendants from several of them. I wouldn't be surprised if studies have been done, would be a fun read!

Actually, wolves and bears are suppose to have evolved from the same small mammal. The wolf to dog hypothesis supposes that a wolf would follow hunters to obtain left overs from the hunt. They learned to remain close to human camps for the same reason. Naturally, by staying close, their litters were born close as well and some of the pups were more gentle and approachable by their human benefactors, eventually joining and being accepted by their human pack. Humans benefited as these semi wild wolves or jackals helped in the hunt and earned their keep. The same phenomenon can be observed in wild foxes, wolves, wolverines and other species today. Their exists a belief that this "tameness", is a trait that can be passed from parents to offspring.

 

[Hybrid]

It will still be a hybrid. By the way an intergrade is only a subspecies hybrid. A fliridaa king sake with a california king snake it would be a intergrade eve though there ranges aren't even close to meeting. A yellow rat snake with a cornsnake, eventhougb there ranges overlap its not an intergrade even though there has been many corn X yellow rat snakes in the wild. Sorry for the errors I'm on my phone

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(continued)It will still be a hybrid. By the way an intergrade is only a subspecies hybrid. A fliridaa king sake with a california king snake it would be a intergrade eve though there ranges aren't even close to meeting. A yellow rat snake with a cornsnake, eventhougb there ranges overlap its not an intergrade even though there has been many corn X yellow rat snakes in the wild. Sorry for the errors I'm on my phone

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(continued)It will still be a hybrid. By the way an intergrade is only a subspecies hybrid. A fliridaa king sake with a california king snake it would be a intergrade eve though there ranges aren't even close to meeting. A yellow rat snake with a cornsnake, eventhougb there ranges overlap its not an intergrade even though there has been many corn X yellow rat snakes in the wild. Sorry for the errors I'm on my phone