- Messages
- 5
- Location
- Oakland, CA
Hi all,
This is my first post on the forums, but would be very grateful for some advice and insights into a strange medical problem with my 5 year old Argentine B&W.
About 3 weeks ago Tia started to loose weight rapidly. Went from a very healthy weight to having no body fat whatsoever, backbone sticking out around the tail and neck, and muscle wastage. This happened over the course of about a week and a half. Both before and during this time, Tia was very active, had a great appetite and did not appear to be in pain.
Tia's recent history:
I've had Tia for 4 and a half years now, she was one year old when I got her. Before I got her she had problems with humidity and lost a thumb last year from it (was surgically amputated to prevent infection). She has hibernated every winter except this last one where she didn't seem to want to hibernate. I also have much better lights, temp controlled heat mat and everything that may have contributed to that.
Due to the Alberta winters being a bit dry, I have taken to giving her a bath every day of lukewarm water (but warm enough for her to enjoy for a bit before leaving the bath) since about January.
Currently Tia is about 4 foot, head to tail. Weighs in at 2.7kg consistently, there has been little weight change since the start of the year, despite the weight loss given that the weight has been replaced with water. When healthy, last summer she weighed in at a max of 3kg.
Tia's cage and setup:
Tia has a cage with enclosed sides and a wire mesh top. She has an under tank heating mat affixed to a glass cutting board in the cage that is temp controlled and around 100'F on the surface, meaning that Tia is about 90'F body temp while in her hiding place. She has a UVB fluorescent lamp and a basking spot lamp in the cage as well. Bulb is replaced every 6mo. Substrate is exoterra jungle earth, kept moist daily, and her hiding rock is an overturned cat litter box that she prefers - this helps keep humidity up while she's sleeping.
Tia's diet and husbandry:
Despite having a cage to be in, Tia has a cat flap in the side of her tank and is a 'house tegu', free roaming around a tegu-proof'ed house (my poor carpets!). The house itself is clean, and no cleaning or other potentially toxic substances are used anywhere she might go. Her favourite activities are shitting on my carpet despite litter box training, clawing at things, and chasing patches of sunlight around.
Her diet is a mix of turkey and kale balls, kept frozen, boiled chicken eggs, quail eggs, frozen mice and fresh non-citrus fruit (grapes, melon, strawberries, etc). She seems to have a preference to sweeter fruit, never is a fan of vegetables, and hasn't really switched over from a meat-centered diet to a more vegetarian-ish diet yet.
I give her 1/3 of a teaspoon of repashy calcium plus calcium and vitamin supplement once a week with her food, and her bone density is very good as confirmed with recent x-rays.
I live in a house with two caged ball pythons which I have had for longer than Tia, and are both healthy. She has been outside last summer to a camp ground, a park, etc, usual tegu stuff when it's hot and sunny. But has had little-to-no exposure to other reptiles, or obvious sources of infection or common reptile diseases. I have not been handling other reptiles, nor have I been to reptile trade shows or anything like that in the past 12 months or so.
Tia's symptoms:
Along with the weight loss and muscle wastage, Tia's only other symptom has been swollen belly / abdomen. She seems to have a buildup of fluid there.
Healthy looking feces / urine, and was checked and treated for intestinal parasites a little over a year ago. She is alert, very active and has a healthy appetite.
Until her vet trip yesterday, where her abdomen was palpated, she presented no breathing difficulties.
She developed a large bump on her chest, between the two forearms that feels bony, but was tested with a needle by my vet to try and draw a sample, and it appears to be an abscess - although this hasn't been fully confirmed. It is difficult to know if this is new, or presenting due to the recent weight loss, whereas before it would not have been noticeable.
Trips to the vet:
When the weight loss happened and became noticeable and pronounced, I took her promptly to my local vet that has a history of working with Tia. My first thought would be this could be a Parthenogenic Pregnancy, due to the changes in hibernation over winter, and increased appetite. This still remains undetermined except that a dorsal to ventral x-ray did not show any evidence of eggs, and enzyme markers in a blood test done did not show signs either.
The first step the vet took after the x-ray was to do a full blood panel, which was then compared against a reference done over a year earlier. The blood panel was normal and compared well against her baseline. According to the blood lab's baseline references (which may be inaccurate for Tegus), she had elevated liver and bile enzymes, and slightly high blood glucose. At this point, the vet hypothesized that this may be a rare-albeit-possible case of reptile diabetes, and we this did a urinology test to look for glucose. This came back negative.
Her abdominal fluid was sampled as well, had a normal water potential compared to tissue fluids (if I understood the vet-lingo correctly?), and showed no presence of any WBCs or other cells of any kind.
Her blood tests also confirmed no new WBCs, elevated WBC count or other evidence of infection. Blood tests also ruled out liver or kidney failure.
At this point my hypothesis to-date were as follows:
- Parthenogenic pregnancy (not likely given x-ray and blood enzyme levels)
- Diet related from too many sweet fruits and an overabundance of sugar in the diet (not likely, and evidence suggests otherwise, e.g. urine sample)
- Heat damage to organs from warm baths every day since January this year, and/or fluctuating heat mat temps (vet thinks this is unlikely and would present as a visible burn on the skin before organs start being damaged)
To help confirm or disprove my hypothesis, I've cut fruit out of the diet, and stopped the daily baths, and have confirmed her temps as posted above.
My vet's hypothesis to-date were:
- Liver or kidney failure (blood tests disproved this)
- Heart failure leading to build up of fluid in abdomen and loss of blood to extremities (haven't proven or disproven this yet)
- Tumor or cancer (haven't proven or disproven this yet, as blood tests can only see certain markers for certain types of cancer)
So at this point we were a bit stuck for ideas, so I went to a specialist reptile vet in Calgary yesterday. No further evidence arose from the exam there, but a few new suggestions came.
The specialist's ideas were:
- Heart failure possible
- Cancer or tumour likely
- Ovarian cyst or necrotised ovaries (unlikely but could be reproductive related)
The second vet did another blood test so we can see how this has changed over two weeks.
She initially suggested ultrasound to try and get an idea of what it might be, but retracted that suggestion on the grounds of whatever it is is very likely to lead to surgery anyway, so they want to perform exploratory surgery on monday.
Unfortunately this has lead to the kicker here. If they find something during surgery that is treatable, they will treat it, if they find something that isn't treatable, they'll let her pass on the table while under anaesthetic. If it is a heart problem, the surgery and anaesthetic will likely kill her anyway. So it's a tough spot to be in unfortunately when I think she is fairly early on in her life, and otherwise should be healthy right now.
If it is multiple tumours the vet wants to let her go on the table, however I have heard of lizards at zoos and in other special cases undergoing a regime of chemo drugs successfully. I don't think this has been considered by my vet, and I'd wonder what you guys think for a tegu?
Hopefully you guys can offer some suggestions or ideas / experience here. I really care about keeping Tia around so I'm hoping there's some info that can be had on this so that there's better news on Monday when the surgery happens!
This is my first post on the forums, but would be very grateful for some advice and insights into a strange medical problem with my 5 year old Argentine B&W.
About 3 weeks ago Tia started to loose weight rapidly. Went from a very healthy weight to having no body fat whatsoever, backbone sticking out around the tail and neck, and muscle wastage. This happened over the course of about a week and a half. Both before and during this time, Tia was very active, had a great appetite and did not appear to be in pain.
Tia's recent history:
I've had Tia for 4 and a half years now, she was one year old when I got her. Before I got her she had problems with humidity and lost a thumb last year from it (was surgically amputated to prevent infection). She has hibernated every winter except this last one where she didn't seem to want to hibernate. I also have much better lights, temp controlled heat mat and everything that may have contributed to that.
Due to the Alberta winters being a bit dry, I have taken to giving her a bath every day of lukewarm water (but warm enough for her to enjoy for a bit before leaving the bath) since about January.
Currently Tia is about 4 foot, head to tail. Weighs in at 2.7kg consistently, there has been little weight change since the start of the year, despite the weight loss given that the weight has been replaced with water. When healthy, last summer she weighed in at a max of 3kg.
Tia's cage and setup:
Tia has a cage with enclosed sides and a wire mesh top. She has an under tank heating mat affixed to a glass cutting board in the cage that is temp controlled and around 100'F on the surface, meaning that Tia is about 90'F body temp while in her hiding place. She has a UVB fluorescent lamp and a basking spot lamp in the cage as well. Bulb is replaced every 6mo. Substrate is exoterra jungle earth, kept moist daily, and her hiding rock is an overturned cat litter box that she prefers - this helps keep humidity up while she's sleeping.
Tia's diet and husbandry:
Despite having a cage to be in, Tia has a cat flap in the side of her tank and is a 'house tegu', free roaming around a tegu-proof'ed house (my poor carpets!). The house itself is clean, and no cleaning or other potentially toxic substances are used anywhere she might go. Her favourite activities are shitting on my carpet despite litter box training, clawing at things, and chasing patches of sunlight around.
Her diet is a mix of turkey and kale balls, kept frozen, boiled chicken eggs, quail eggs, frozen mice and fresh non-citrus fruit (grapes, melon, strawberries, etc). She seems to have a preference to sweeter fruit, never is a fan of vegetables, and hasn't really switched over from a meat-centered diet to a more vegetarian-ish diet yet.
I give her 1/3 of a teaspoon of repashy calcium plus calcium and vitamin supplement once a week with her food, and her bone density is very good as confirmed with recent x-rays.
I live in a house with two caged ball pythons which I have had for longer than Tia, and are both healthy. She has been outside last summer to a camp ground, a park, etc, usual tegu stuff when it's hot and sunny. But has had little-to-no exposure to other reptiles, or obvious sources of infection or common reptile diseases. I have not been handling other reptiles, nor have I been to reptile trade shows or anything like that in the past 12 months or so.
Tia's symptoms:
Along with the weight loss and muscle wastage, Tia's only other symptom has been swollen belly / abdomen. She seems to have a buildup of fluid there.
Healthy looking feces / urine, and was checked and treated for intestinal parasites a little over a year ago. She is alert, very active and has a healthy appetite.
Until her vet trip yesterday, where her abdomen was palpated, she presented no breathing difficulties.
She developed a large bump on her chest, between the two forearms that feels bony, but was tested with a needle by my vet to try and draw a sample, and it appears to be an abscess - although this hasn't been fully confirmed. It is difficult to know if this is new, or presenting due to the recent weight loss, whereas before it would not have been noticeable.
Trips to the vet:
When the weight loss happened and became noticeable and pronounced, I took her promptly to my local vet that has a history of working with Tia. My first thought would be this could be a Parthenogenic Pregnancy, due to the changes in hibernation over winter, and increased appetite. This still remains undetermined except that a dorsal to ventral x-ray did not show any evidence of eggs, and enzyme markers in a blood test done did not show signs either.
The first step the vet took after the x-ray was to do a full blood panel, which was then compared against a reference done over a year earlier. The blood panel was normal and compared well against her baseline. According to the blood lab's baseline references (which may be inaccurate for Tegus), she had elevated liver and bile enzymes, and slightly high blood glucose. At this point, the vet hypothesized that this may be a rare-albeit-possible case of reptile diabetes, and we this did a urinology test to look for glucose. This came back negative.
Her abdominal fluid was sampled as well, had a normal water potential compared to tissue fluids (if I understood the vet-lingo correctly?), and showed no presence of any WBCs or other cells of any kind.
Her blood tests also confirmed no new WBCs, elevated WBC count or other evidence of infection. Blood tests also ruled out liver or kidney failure.
At this point my hypothesis to-date were as follows:
- Parthenogenic pregnancy (not likely given x-ray and blood enzyme levels)
- Diet related from too many sweet fruits and an overabundance of sugar in the diet (not likely, and evidence suggests otherwise, e.g. urine sample)
- Heat damage to organs from warm baths every day since January this year, and/or fluctuating heat mat temps (vet thinks this is unlikely and would present as a visible burn on the skin before organs start being damaged)
To help confirm or disprove my hypothesis, I've cut fruit out of the diet, and stopped the daily baths, and have confirmed her temps as posted above.
My vet's hypothesis to-date were:
- Liver or kidney failure (blood tests disproved this)
- Heart failure leading to build up of fluid in abdomen and loss of blood to extremities (haven't proven or disproven this yet)
- Tumor or cancer (haven't proven or disproven this yet, as blood tests can only see certain markers for certain types of cancer)
So at this point we were a bit stuck for ideas, so I went to a specialist reptile vet in Calgary yesterday. No further evidence arose from the exam there, but a few new suggestions came.
The specialist's ideas were:
- Heart failure possible
- Cancer or tumour likely
- Ovarian cyst or necrotised ovaries (unlikely but could be reproductive related)
The second vet did another blood test so we can see how this has changed over two weeks.
She initially suggested ultrasound to try and get an idea of what it might be, but retracted that suggestion on the grounds of whatever it is is very likely to lead to surgery anyway, so they want to perform exploratory surgery on monday.
Unfortunately this has lead to the kicker here. If they find something during surgery that is treatable, they will treat it, if they find something that isn't treatable, they'll let her pass on the table while under anaesthetic. If it is a heart problem, the surgery and anaesthetic will likely kill her anyway. So it's a tough spot to be in unfortunately when I think she is fairly early on in her life, and otherwise should be healthy right now.
If it is multiple tumours the vet wants to let her go on the table, however I have heard of lizards at zoos and in other special cases undergoing a regime of chemo drugs successfully. I don't think this has been considered by my vet, and I'd wonder what you guys think for a tegu?
Hopefully you guys can offer some suggestions or ideas / experience here. I really care about keeping Tia around so I'm hoping there's some info that can be had on this so that there's better news on Monday when the surgery happens!
